[SolidSnake]

Originally Posted by automobilophile

Cant the amp and subwoofer be supplemented by better speakers at rear and front? I dont generally play music at loud volume, but rather play at medium volume. What is more important for me is the fidelity (accurate reproduction of sounds from different frequency spectrum) of the system and not its power output.

Is it possible?

Actually , a good headunit gives a output of 18 rms. That means , say at volume level 45 , the music has all the clarity but its too loud to your liking . But , at level 25 ,the loudness is adequate but clarity or details are missing. For this , you need an amplifier matching the speakers power rating. So that speakers will have the power to reproduce the details. An amplifier not only increases loudness but also the sound quality.

Coming to the sub , music is incomplete without low frequencies . For this you need a subwoofer . The low frequencies required for the ultimate music listening cannot be produced by ordinary speakers or ovals. A subwoofer is definitely needed for this.

If u dont hav rear passengers , skip the rear speakers and invest in better front stage.

Please mention your budget so that i can guide you to the correct setup.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

Actually , a good headunit gives a output of 18 rms. That means , say at volume level 45 , the music has all the clarity but its too loud to your liking ...

Interesting, but I didn't understand your way of associating power output to volume level to loudness. Could you please explain?

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

... But , at level 25 ,the loudness is adequate but clarity or details are missing. ...

Err... then what good is that 'loudness' if clarity or details go missing? What is the HU playing at that level in that case?

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

... For this , you need an amplifier matching the speakers power rating. ...

What does 'matching' signify? It should be less than, same or more than the speaker's power rating?

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

... Please mention your budget so that i can guide you to the correct setup.

In case you are a Car Accessories dealer, please do declare your business interest in the Commercial Involvement Declaration section.

[automobilophile]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

Actually , a good headunit gives a output of 18 rms. That means , say at volume level 45 , the music has all the clarity but its too loud to your liking . But , at level 25 ,the loudness is adequate but clarity or details are missing. For this , you need an amplifier matching the speakers power rating. So that speakers will have the power to reproduce the details. An amplifier not only increases loudness but also the sound quality.

Coming to the sub , music is incomplete without low frequencies . For this you need a subwoofer . The low frequencies required for the ultimate music listening cannot be produced by ordinary speakers or ovals. A subwoofer is definitely needed for this.

If u dont hav rear passengers , skip the rear speakers and invest in better front stage.

Please mention your budget so that i can guide you to the correct setup.

Hmm.. In that case an amp is a must. My budget it 30 to 40k, but obviously lower the better

[SolidSnake]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Interesting, but I didn't understand your way of associating power output to volume level to loudness. Could you please explain?

Err... then what good is that 'loudness' if clarity or details go missing? What is the HU playing at that level in that case?

What does 'matching' signify? It should be less than, same or more than the speaker's power rating?

In case you are a Car Accessories dealer, please do declare your business interest in the Commercial Involvement Declaration section.

Matching means the rms value of the speaker should match the output given by the amp. You can drive a 50 watts speaker with a 60 watts speaker and vice versa. But you cannot drive a 150 rms speaker with a 60watts amplifier . Underpowering is as dangerous as overpowering.

Sorry , I am not a dealer and all. Just my experiences with lot of ICE products over the years.

See 18watts of the headunit power cannot produce the extreme details or clarity at loud volumes. You need power for that. Distortion will happen. I did not happen to associate loudness to power output. But the power output to clarity at loud and lower volumes.

Originally Posted by automobilophile

Hmm.. In that case an amp is a must. My budget it 30 to 40k, but obviously lower the better

You can go for the following.

Hu - Jvc av70bt - 22k
Speakers - I will leave it to your choice.
Amp - Digital designs C4c - 12k
Amp Kit - Schosche - 2k

Speakers There are many. Please audition and select which one you like
FTS Audio is a new entry in the basic level of speakers.
Kenwood is sweet sounding. Bull Audio is also excellent.
Infinity Reference is a bit harsh . If u can stretch , get DD cs6.5 comps.

Later you can add a good sub.This will give you a good setup.
Amp , you can get from BBW Distributors ( @gunbir) .
Hu , Wiring kit , Speakers , you can check with local dealer or snapdeal.
Of course , please go to a good installer . He will take care of the install and tuning.

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

... Underpowering is as dangerous as overpowering. ...

Dangerous? Why is that? Will the higher power speaker damage the lower power amplifier?

[SolidSnake]

Originally Posted by automobilophile

Hmm.. In that case an amp is a must. My budget it 30 to 40k, but obviously lower the better

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Dangerous? Why is that? Will the higher power speaker damage the lower power amplifier?

Please go through this link to find how it will damage the speakers.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-3PtfRm9...subs-blow.html

[automobilophile]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

Please go through this link to find how it will damage the speakers.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-3PtfRm9...subs-blow.html

very informative technical details.. thanks..

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

Matching means the rms value of the speaker should match the output given by the amp. ...

Amplifier itself costs 14k!! Looks Like my wallet is going to see a serious dent!!

Originally Posted by DerAlte

* Get 6.5" components for the front . This would be a pair of 6.5" mid-bass (which go into the door) and tweeters. Mount the tweeters preferably on the sail panel - inside the ORVM mounting. A decent pair of components would be around 6K - Infinity, JBL, Auditor, Hertz, Bull, Boston etc. ...

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

...
You can go for the following.

Hu - Jvc av70bt - 22k
Speakers - I will leave it to your choice.
Amp - Digital designs C4c - 12k
Amp Kit - Schosche - 2k...

@DerAlte @SolidSnake: I guess probably i should zero down on a HU first and then I should get back to you.
That way the number of variables are readuced a bit.
Building this system in stages might also be an option as you guys suggested.
Will soon get back to you guys..
Thanks for your inputs..

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by SolidSnake

Please go through this link to find how it will damage the speakers. ...

Thank you for the link. Perhaps you will understand the issue better if you understood the nature of waveforms and power content - have a look at this link - it explains in a very simple way.

BTW, the Crutchfield link goes a bit overboard with journalistic liberty:
* "A square wave carries twice the RMS power of a sine wave of the same amplitude (height)". Incorrect - the factor is 1.404

* "You will notice that the sides of the clipped signal are vertical. That means that the signal will try to move the sub's cone from all the way forward (point E) to all the way to the rear (F) in zero amount of time, travelling at the speed of infinity." - that is a load of ignorance coming through as 'sensationalization'. When amp reaches clipping (output signal clamping to power supply voltage), sine waves don't become square waves. Only the tops get limited to max. - like a nariyal pani wala chops off the top of a coconut. The zero-crossing slopes don't change their slope. Neither does the coconut turn into a cuboid when the top is cut, nor does the amp start supplying a square wave instead of sine waves

* Harmonics produced by clipping do carry power that is not converted into cone movement, and get converted into heat. BUT one has to first consider the magnitude of that power w.r.t. coil size to know whether there will be a catastrophic coil breakdown. One cannot willy nilly extend the logic of a 150W sub getting 60W extra from a >=150W rms amp (sure, 60W is significant heat), to an 18W rms amp sending 7W more to a 150W sub or mid-bass - the logic doesn't work

* Sending 7W more from the 18W amp to the 150W speaker is not "underpowering" the speaker to the extent of risking damage. The speaker, which can convert a lot more power to cone movement, will just faithfully reproduce whatever the amp gave. This combination will produce far less cone movement and music loudness as a result, and even the amp clipping will be evident. What will not be reproduced efficiently will be softer details - for which a more powerful external amp has to be used. Not that the HU internal amp will not produce music - the external amp will produce better music

* Talking of amp distortion and clipping (not speaker or sub inabilities), one has to be a. tone deaf or b. eating peanuts while listening or c. as they say in the eastern parts - sleeping soundly after putting mustard oil in nostrils not to be severely disturbed by the sound of it!!! To anyone who is listening normally, the harsh sound of the distortion is enough to raise alarm bells - enough to immediately reduce volume.

The issue is not of underpowering the speakers, it is of pushing too much out of the amp. Mind you, a speaker or sub doesn't demand power by itself (they are passive devices) - it is the listener who drives more and more by raising the volume. It is like eating more and more ignoring the feedback from the stomach - the result is usually very obvious.

Originally Posted by automobilophile

... Amplifier itself costs 14k!! Looks Like my wallet is going to see a serious dent!! ...

Not necessarily. A Kenwood M845 will be good enough for you - it costs only 6K.

Originally Posted by automobilophile

... I guess probably i should zero down on a HU first and then I should get back to you. ...

Good policy. It will give you a chance to a. scan what is available physically with dealers and b. audition what is available. One can, and shouldn't, taste the heat of chillies with others' tongues - it is only done for children.

Trust you own ears, and what is in between. Some you will like, some you will not. It is quite likely your listening perception differs from that of, say, @solidsnake's or mine. I am not surprised Infinity Reference sounds harsh to @solidsnake - it sounds neutral and sweet to almost everyone else.

[automobilophile]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Thank you for the link. Perhaps you will understand the issue better if you understood the nature of waveforms and power content - have a look at this link - it explains in a very simple way.

BTW, the Crutchfield link goes a bit overboard with journalistic liberty:
* "A square wave carries twice the RMS power of a sine wave of the same amplitude (height)". Incorrect - the factor is 1.404

* "You will notice that the sides of the clipped signal are vertical. That means that the signal will try to move the sub's cone from all the way forward (point E) to all the way to the rear (F) in zero amount of time, travelling at the speed of infinity." - that is a load of ignorance coming through as 'sensationalization'. When amp reaches clipping (output signal clamping to power supply voltage), sine waves don't become square waves. Only the tops get limited to max. - like a nariyal pani wala chops off the top of a coconut. The zero-crossing slopes don't change their slope. Neither does the coconut turn into a cuboid when the top is cut, nor does the amp start supplying a square wave instead of sine waves

* Harmonics produced by clipping do carry power that is not converted into cone movement, and get converted into heat. BUT one has to first consider the magnitude of that power w.r.t. coil size to know whether there will be a catastrophic coil breakdown. One cannot willy nilly extend the logic of a 150W sub getting 60W extra from a >=150W rms amp (sure, 60W is significant heat), to an 18W rms amp sending 7W more to a 150W sub or mid-bass - the logic doesn't work

* Sending 7W more from the 18W amp to the 150W speaker is not "underpowering" the speaker to the extent of risking damage. The speaker, which can convert a lot more power to cone movement, will just faithfully reproduce whatever the amp gave. This combination will produce far less cone movement and music loudness as a result, and even the amp clipping will be evident. What will not be reproduced efficiently will be softer details - for which a more powerful external amp has to be used. Not that the HU internal amp will not produce music - the external amp will produce better music

* Talking of amp distortion and clipping (not speaker or sub inabilities), one has to be a. tone deaf or b. eating peanuts while listening or c. as they say in the eastern parts - sleeping soundly after putting mustard oil in nostrils not to be severely disturbed by the sound of it!!! To anyone who is listening normally, the harsh sound of the distortion is enough to raise alarm bells - enough to immediately reduce volume.

The issue is not of underpowering the speakers, it is of pushing too much out of the amp. Mind you, a speaker or sub doesn't demand power by itself (they are passive devices) - it is the listener who drives more and more by raising the volume. It is like eating more and more ignoring the feedback from the stomach - the result is usually very obvious.

Not necessarily. A Kenwood M845 will be good enough for you - it costs only 6K.

Good policy. It will give you a chance to a. scan what is available physically with dealers and b. audition what is available. One can, and shouldn't, taste the heat of chillies with others' tongues - it is only done for children.

Trust you own ears, and what is in between. Some you will like, some you will not. It is quite likely your listening perception differs from that of, say, @solidsnake's or mine. I am not surprised Infinity Reference sounds harsh to @solidsnake - it sounds neutral and sweet to almost everyone else.

@DerAlte: As you know I am also trying to find ways to integrate my Nokia symbian phone's navigations to the HU.
Till now I found 2 entry level devices supporting this feature (mirrorlink):
1) JVC KWNSX600
2) Sony XAV-601BT

The JVC one doesn't seem to be available in India. However is available in US. I can source it from US. But can you tell me if I source it from US will there be any problem during installation in Ritz?

JVC price is around 350$ in crutchfield:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-YkK5Kcj...l#overview-tab

The above Sony one is 25k Rs in Snapdeal.com

Also between Sony and JVC which one is good in general?

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by automobilophile

... But can you tell me if I source it from US will there be any problem during installation in Ritz? ...

I wouldn't anticipate any mounting problems since it is a regular 2DIN one.

Just check if this is a US specific model before buying. The usual issue is the tuning of FM - decimal increments for frequencies are .1, .3 and so on in US I think (please check), so it would jump .2, .4 etc. Just check the manual of this model online to confirm.

Originally Posted by automobilophile

... Also between Sony and JVC which one is good in general?

I would buy a JVC over Sony any day!

[kk28]

Dear Members,

I need advise on the ICE set of my new Ritz ZDi.

Here is the component list:

HU - Pioneer AVH-3200BT
Front Component Speakers - Infinity Reference
Rear - Pioneer Coaxial

The above set up was in my old car (Swift Vdi). I was quite happy with this set up. The only missing factor was the thump. Hence when I got my new Ritz, I decided to move the existing HU, Component & rear speaker to my new car. In addition to this, all I needed was a amplifier and a subwoofer to give the missing thump.

I choose to go with the 4 Channel amp to drive the front component and remaining 2 channels briged to drive the subwoofer. Since I was getting the amplifier and sub from MGA, the only approved brand they deal with is Sony. Hence invariably I had to go with the Sony Amp and Sub.

Now that the set up is complete, I am not happy with the quality of sound. I am not sure if its the product it self which is missing the clarity and thump I need or is it that the connection it self is wrongly done. I hear a lot of jar in the woofer and I do not hear the bass from the components at all. I really doubt if the technician has driven the component and sub (bridge mode) from the amp. The reason being, when I go to the fader in the HU, and set the fader to front, I hear only the front component speakers working and nothing comes from rear speakers. Contrary when I set the fader all the way to rear, I do not hear any sound output coming from the rear speakers. This makes me believe that the front component are still driven from the HU and rear speakers and sub are driven form the amp.

Questions/Concerns:
1. Is there a way to check if the speakers are driven from the amp as per my requirements ( i.e front component and sub from amp and rear speaker from the HU) ?
2.Is there a way to improve the sound quality in this set up? I am referring to the thump.

Truly appreciate any response from the guru's on this.

[Paradox]

Dear All,

I'm planning to upgrade the stock Nippon HU on my Ritz Zxi with a better dual-din HU with USB and Bluetooth functionality.

I searched the forum for a while, but could not get any latest thread on Ritz upgrade. I'm a newbie in this subject and thought of seeking your expert advice. I listen to variety of songs (Illayaraja, Pink Floyd, DSP, AR Rahman, David Guetta to name a few) and tired of burning CDs every time. (lack of USB feature) Therefore, would like your suggestion to upgrade to a better audio system with USB and Bluetooth compatibility and most importantly all seamlessly connected to the steering controls. (Just like the existing setup)

I came across these two options:
1. Blaupunkt - Las Vegas 530 - 6.2 inch digital TFT touch screen display With Bluetooth (http://www.snapdeal.com/product/blau...-62/2025820668)

2. Sony - XAV-68BT-15.7 cm WVGA Touch Panel Monitor with Bluetooth (http://www.snapdeal.com/product/sony...uch/1586917719)

Which one is better? Please recommend if there are any other brands available in the same price range.

Questions:
1. If I replace the HU, do I necessarily have to replace the OEM speakers on the front & rear doors too?

2. I am little skeptical in opening the doors for speaker replacement as it may cause them to rattle. But if door rattle can be avoided, I will go for it. What do you suggest?

3. I reside near Gachibowli - Hyderabad, so any places you would recommend for these upgrades?

4. Also, buying these HU online seems to work out cheaper and comes with doorstep installation (Xenex Madhapur quoted Rs. 20,500 for Blaupunkt - Las Vegas 530, whereas the price on Snapdeal is Rs.13,290). How is the quality of installation done? Has anyone tried this before?

[DerAlte]

Originally Posted by Paradox

... Which one is better? Please recommend if there are any other brands available in the same price range. ...

The Blaupunkt would be definitely better sounding, though there is nothing seriously wrong with the Sony. Look into details and features carefully - price shouldn't be the only deciding factor.

Apart from these, you can also look at Pio and Kenwood (India websites). They have very good HUs in the 18-24K range. Navigation will cost you at least 10K more.

Originally Posted by Paradox

... Questions:
1. If I replace the HU, do I necessarily have to replace the OEM speakers on the front & rear doors too? ...

Ideally you should - you are most probably missing a lot with OE speakers already. Audition a good system in a car at an installer, or a TBHP members car - you will know what you are missing. The system doesn't really have to be expensive to sound good.

Originally Posted by Paradox

... 2. I am little skeptical in opening the doors for speaker replacement as it may cause them to rattle. But if door rattle can be avoided, I will go for it. What do you suggest? ...

It is actually the opposite. Once the doorpad is opened, one can make sure that loose cables and wires are stayed down with hot-melt glue or scotch tape, so that they don't cause rattles in the future. Once opened, putting in some damping sheet on at least the outer metal layer is a good investment. Additional damping will make a dramatic improvement in the lower frequencies that are usually drowned out by road noise.

Originally Posted by Paradox

... 4. Also, buying these HU online seems to work out cheaper and comes with doorstep installation (Xenex Madhapur quoted Rs. 20,500 for Blaupunkt - Las Vegas 530, whereas the price on Snapdeal is Rs.13,290). How is the quality of installation done? Has anyone tried this before?

Installers don't consult ecommerce sites to cross check price. Some maintain a high price because they got it at a high price. Avoid them - there are plenty of others. It is not necessary that you buy from an installer - they will happily install the HU if you buy it online.

Warranty *can be* a dicey issue, as online sources will feign ignorance (worst case, ignore you) when something goes wrong. That is because one usually doesn't check the source - if they had bought it from grey market (Thailand is a popular source), some manufacturers won't honor warranty.

[Paradox]

I have ordered the following for my Ritz Zxi:

Sony - XAV-68BT-15.7 cm WVGA Touch Panel Monitor with Bluetooth
JBL - CS 6 - 6.5 inch 2 Way Coaxial Speakers (135 W) [Pair of Speakers]
JBL - CS 6C - 6.5 inch Component Speakers (150 W) [Pair of Speakers]

I heard it requires extra spacers to install these speakers on the doors. What are those?

And, any recommended place to install these near KPHB or Madhapur - Hyderabad?

[Sunsh!nes]

Spacers are nothing but mdf rings fixed between the door and the speakers to avoid any terminals touching the metal body of the car. This also helps in better mounting of speakers firmly to avoid jarring if any. It also helps create a gap between the speakers and the body when the speakers are deep and have big magnets.