[thelord]

Originally Posted by thelord

@better4worse
Punto doors are quite large and the 'kick' mid-bass could be slightly compromised when compared to an i-10 or Getz.

@better4worse
I take this comment back. I auditioned a friend's Punto today (who is also a t-bhpian, SumitBahl), and the mid-bass was just amazing! Although he is using a slightly higher series of Rainbow components (SAC) which offer much more depth and detail, but imo the mid-bass on the Titan set should be comparable to the SACs.

The other 2 differentiating factors are that the doors of his Punto are damped and the components are being powered by an amp. Keep us posted on how things go at your end. Cheers!

[pawanarya]

Originally Posted by Gt500

@ b4w

I had auditioned these speakers when I was searching for a pair of components, and I too found them lacking the factor that you have mentioned, or simply put they sounded like el-cheapo transistor speakers

Wo!!! that's some statement... I wonder what do you listen to that makes rainbows cheapo.

Gunbir and JB would sure jump out of the window after reading this

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by Gt500

they sounded like el-cheapo transistor speakers

Cheers
GT

P.S. This is purely my personal opinion

I think that's a bit of a strong statement to make. I seriously doubt they sound like 200 rupees transistor radio drivers. Either that, or you don't know what cheap transistor radio speakers sound like.

Still, you are entitled to your opinion.

Originally Posted by pawanarya

Gunbir and JB would sure jump out of the window after reading this

Not really. I see no reason to. One man's meat and all that. GT500 is free to express his opinion.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. That is the point of a forum.

[better4worse]

Originally Posted by thelord

@better4worse
I take this comment back. I auditioned a friend's Punto today (who is also a t-bhpian, SumitBahl), and the mid-bass was just amazing! Although he is using a slightly higher series of Rainbow components (SAC) which offer much more depth and detail, but imo the mid-bass on the Titan set should be comparable to the SACs.

The other 2 differentiating factors are that the doors of his Punto are damped and the components are being powered by an amp. Keep us posted on how things go at your end. Cheers!

Yea, I'm aware of that, but he is driving them with a HU and amplifier. I'd like to know how well the 8016BT (he has the same HU) drives the Titan(SLG) or SLCs without the amp.

Originally Posted by pawanarya

Wo!!! that's some statement... I wonder what do you listen to that makes rainbows cheapo.

Gunbir and JB would sure jump out of the window after reading this

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

I think that's a bit of a strong statement to make. I seriously doubt they sound like 200 rupees transistor radio drivers. Either that, or you don't know what cheap transistor radio speakers sound like.

@ Pawan & Sam, while it was a strong statement to make and it isn't way off what u'd hear if you could check out the sound in my punto just about now. But I understand the point, one should not just write-off a brand just like that because there could be reasons for the way it sounds in a particular setup.There are variables to be considered, the statement cannot be taken in isolation.

Just a minor update, I met up with Gunbir on the weekend, showed him the car and yes there is a certain mid bass deficit (how much..in my book its significant) with the Titans in my punto (in its current state of install), the point is its ruining the overall customer experience of the product. We discussed at length what could be the potential reasons for that (Polarity, lack of amp, lack of door damping). While polarity doesn't seem to be the issue so we are onto stage 1 damping on the doors (to get the hollow section right).

One of the scenarios that was discussed was that, possibly kenwood 8016BT wasnt driving the mid bass just as well (to say it was bottoms out due to lack of power). In other words the potentially the HU lacks the power to drive mid bass. (@ Gunbir, feel free to articulate/correct the scenario if I haven't done it right way)

We are looking to meet up again during the course of the week at driven, to do the damping of the front doors to see if we can eek out appreciable gains in mid bass along with some more tests.

I'll share more details in my next post.

(PS: @Gunbir - Thanks for taking time out for a detailed chat to discuss stuff around titans and sound theory all in all.)

[navin]

Originally Posted by better4worse

One of the scenarios that was discussed was that, possibly kenwood 8016BT wasnt driving the mid bass just as well (to say it was bottoms out due to lack of power).

Can Gunbir check the 8016. My BIL's friend in Singapore had a similar problem and they found the problem to be with he 8016's power amp IC. Why not attach a small amp to the pre outs of the 8016 and check if the Kenwood is atleast having the tonal balance you expect.

Again I have not heard the car. Gunbir has so I'd trust his judgement over mine. How much bass exactly is missing is difficult to covey over a forum na?

[better4worse]

Originally Posted by navin

Can Gunbir check the 8016. My BIL's friend in Singapore had a similar problem and they found the problem to be with he 8016's power amp IC. Why not attach a small amp to the pre outs of the 8016 and check if the Kenwood is atleast having the tonal balance you expect.

Hi Navin, Gunbir mentioned that he has used this HU extensively and experienced similar problems and did some tests of his own only to realize in the end that it is the power supply that wasn't as effective as it should be. I'll let Gunbir share more details from his experience with 8016.

As for trying out the HU with the amp, yes, that is the idea to check and confirm this aspect as well. Well hypothetically speaking, if the mid bass does come alive with a HU + amplifier show, it would prove two things

a. The titans are capable of handling significant mid bass
b. The amplifier is an absolute necessity, because for sure without it the components don't deliver mid bass with base HU.

Even before we do all this, I don't like the thought of being told that I now need an amplifier to drive them, for one I know that it now forces me into a position where in I have to look for an amplifier. With little or no due diligence (read as auditioning a variety of amps) ever done in that direction, I would again be forced to go by recommendations and also might just end up compromising on the quality because of immediate budget concerns considering this would not be a planned buy/upgrade.

Originally Posted by navin

Again I have not heard the car. Gunbir has so I'd trust his judgement over mine. How much bass exactly is missing is difficult to covey over a forum na?

I'm assuming this question was directed to me.
I would agree sir, especially if its some one like me who has a limited vocabulary vis-a-vis sound theory, it gets all the more difficult!

[navin]

Originally Posted by better4worse

I'm assuming this question was directed to me.
I would agree sir, especially if its some one like me who has a limited vocabulary vis-a-vis sound theory, it gets all the more difficult!

No this was not directed at you. It was general statement. Listening to a system gives the listener many cues that are not available to someone who has only been informed via a forum or email.

Hence a person who has listened to the system is in a far better prosition to judge what the problems could be.

[low_bass_makker]

Try any other HU simple !!!!!

[Gilead]

I have heard the Kenwood X7013/16 in the following combinations.

- Focal amp/JL speakers
- Focal amp/Focal speakers
- HK amp/JL speakers
- JBL amp/MTX speakers

None of the setups were lacking in bass. Sub or mid. I have never heard it powering component speakers on its own so I don't know how it would sound there. My rear JBL coaxials are powered off the 7013 HU and the bass response is superb when not HPF-ed. I have currently HPF-ed them.

I recently heard Der Junge's ICE and he has kept the sub level very low to emphasize the mid bass of his Focal speakers and they sounded superb. That was the first time I heard a tabla/mridangam solo in an audition (as opposed to Akon and AC/DC ) and bass was not lacking at all. I believe Sathee46 is the latest owner of a 7016 here. Maybe you can get his opinion as well.

A comparable Pioneer HU (5290 maybe) would indeed produce more bass than the Kenwood but you do lose out on the mid range instruments, vocals, highs and overall clarity. But I wouldn't say a Kenwood HU lacks bass. I would not be using one otherwise.

I don't have a solution for your problem but you should probably try one or all of these.

- Ask your installer to install a Pioneer HU if he has a spare one lying around.
- Damp the doors well.
- Add an amp.

[montyguru]

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

Try any other HU simple !!!!!

+1. yeah, its so much simpler. there's a slightly used alpine HU on standby booked by me at driven, ask them to use it and test it out.

i don't know how far damping will go to make a difference in components driven by just the HU at some 8-10w RMS.

do try a different HU before you spend any more money. a parrot bluetooth device is available on futurebazaar which uses the cigarette socket and FM waves.

[DerAlte]

Damping will make quite a difference even with HU-driven setups at moderate volumes. Basically damping removes the sounds (vibrations, rumble, rattles etc.) which would, in undamped circumstances, prevent one from hearing the lower end altogether. Even OE speakers are capable of a small amount of mid-bass, but that is overpowered by the noise in undamped cars.

[better4worse]

Guys, I finally managed a visit to Driven to get the matter investigated and resolved, but let me respond to some of the things shared on the thread.

Originally Posted by low_bass_makker

Try any other HU simple !!!!!

Originally Posted by montyguru

+1. yeah, its so much simpler. there's a slightly used alpine HU on standby booked by me at driven, ask them to use it and test it out.

@LBM/Montyguru - Thanks for the advice, I spoke to the guys at driven and they were cool to experiment. While this was an option to confirm if the Titans exhibit some mid bass, the answer in either case wouldnt have helped as much. I wasnt keen on changing the HU for a simple reason it offers damn VFM and for sure drives the rear coax very well. Nothing really to complain about other than front mid bass aberration !

Originally Posted by Gilead

...None of the setups were lacking in bass. Sub or mid. I have never heard it powering component speakers on its own so I don't know how it would sound there.

Gilead ! Yes with an amp, its so easy.. isn't it ?! I don't think I know anyone who has ever tried running the 'Titans' without the amp. But I don't have one and am not yet convinced if one needs it as a mandatory item to drive the front components. I dont think the HU drives them any differently from
the rear speakers in terms of power output from the HU. If the rear works well with the same HU without the amp, so should the front (assuming
we give it proper damping), unless someone here presents a contrapunto to this.


------------------

So I visited Driven this yesterday afternoon after confirming with Gunbir. As the first thing on the list, we got the damping (Stinger) done to the front two doors. The plan was to try and check if damping helps improve matters, if not we'd try out other things. Well the damping didnt quite do any wonders to the mid bass output apart from providing a proper enclosure. It was at best a wee bit of improvement on the existing . Next thing we tried was a change in HU, another brand new kenny (7016) just to check if my particular set (8016) had a problem with mid bass (check for an
isolated case). Well the results with 7016 weren't any different. So hence proved, nothing wrong or out of place with my individual head unit.

Next on our agenda was to try out a different set of front components, with my HU. So we tried Digital Design (CS 6.5) and we immediately
found some serious mid bass with the 8016. I must add here, the damping made a difference to the whole mid bass experience once we found it with
the DD's. The initial impression of the DD's was that high's sounded a bit harsh, but after some expert tuning on the HU by Gunbir, it sounded
damn nice real clean, much...much better! So I spent the next half an hour trying out different songs /settings to see what I like and dislike in DD's.

So I chose DD's over Titans, for a simple reason work pretty well with 8016 and I don't need an amplifier immediately to experience decent mid bass, good clarity and detail, which is the original requirement for initial ICE! I completely understand, when somebody says "get an amplifier!" i.e. to experience the full range that front components tend to offer. I can hopefully now look to wait up, save some, audition a few new and used amplifiers before I make up my mind on the very equipment that I want.

Things we didn't try out:

1. Change the HU to an Alpine or Pioneer
- Well to be honest, the only purpose it would have served is to check whether the Titan are working fine or not. The approach wouldn't have solved my problem of finding front midbass with the current HU, since I am not keen on changing the HU as it is a good vfm HU, does most things right. Infact, I don't know of a better HU, which offers as many features/functionality in sub 20K category.

2. Try putting in the amp to experience mid bass from front components
- It would have been our next step if we would'nt have found mid bass even with DD's.

Some prima facie learnings/observations from the experience:

- Kenwood 8016 doesn't lack mid bass... Period! I think it is pretty significant to be noticed with the right setup/settings. There could be other HU's from Alpine/Pioneer which may offer better midbass experience on just the HU, but that doesnt take anything away from kenwood.

- Kenwood 8016 + Titans - Don't work as well, atleast the combination didn't work for me ! I'm not sure of the exact reasons, considering there's nothing wrong with both HU or the Titans. Is it that Kenwood doesn't
throw enough power for the Titans or is it that Titans have a serious
power requirement to show real performance ? I'm sure everybody has an opinion..to each his own !

- Kenwood 8016/7016 + Titans + Amplifier - Super mid bass exists ! I have no personal experience with it, but many active users (bhpians) of titans have vouched for it, so for sure Titans give a good mid bass experience.

- Damping surely helps in a big way especially when the setup starts to throw out some serious mid bass even on the base HU i.e. without the amplifier.

- What might work for world at large might not work for you, reasons for this could be many, ranging from a different car, different equipment setup, wires to a degree and personal sound bias/ear for detail.

- The mantra on the forum is audition, audition... audition before you buy! But auditioning it in someone else's car has its limitations. Audition-ing stuff in one's own car is the only way to confirm if a particular item works for you or does not. Audition-ing it in a frd's car is hardly an indicator as to whether it will work for you as well unless the comparison is 'apple to apple' (i.e. same car + same setup and audio equipment configuration spec to spec).

- All in all...different strokes for different folks, even more so in ICE !

[sudhi_des]

Good to hear that you are satisfied now.

Do you have any picture of your install? I just want to check how well new DD fits in punto and where you put the twitter?

thanks

[panky12345]

Originally Posted by better4worse

- Kenwood 8016 + Titans - Don't work as well, atleast the combination didn't work for me !

- Kenwood 8016/7016 + Titans + Amplifier - Super mid bass exists ! I have no personal experience with it, but many active users (bhpians) of titans have vouched for it, so for sure Titans give a good mid bass experience.

Simple.. DON'T go by perceptions.. Audition BEFORE you buy!

[better4worse]

Originally Posted by sudhi_des

Good to hear that you are satisfied now.

Do you have any picture of your install? I just want to check how well new DD fits in punto and where you put the twitter?

thanks

^^ "Satisfied" my friend is a difficult state to achieve, but yeah I feel better off as I think its closer to what I want to hear or expected from front components worth that much. A senior pro once told me, that its usually a case of what set of compromises you want to live with.

On a more serious note, to be fair to me, its just been two days with it and I am still exploring the new components and if there's a break-in period to them, then I'm expecting things to evolve some for the next couple of days.

As for the pics of the install, sorry to disappoint, just didn't take any. I was so busy watching the install or chattin up with Gunbir discussing sound theory, trying to identify and understand my own sound specific needs and how best my current setup can deliver on that. I think we just spent 10% of our time even discussing Titans or DD's, the rest was all about the direction of sound to take and I for one well really enjoyed it ! So ...@ Gunbir, many thanks for all the objectivity around sound theory!

As for the DD fitting into punto...with consummate ease, no problems at all. I have had the tweeters installed in the punto's stock positions (in the door), wanted to check out if I am okay with them there sound wise, might just take-em out a month or two down the line to see if it makes the sound more pleasing. Like I said I'm looking to experimenting with stuff, to get a first hand understanding why what works (for me)and what doesn't!

Originally Posted by panky12345

Simple.. DON'T go by perceptions.. Audition BEFORE you buy!

I agree Panky sir, I totally agree , learn't my lesson and went by the ear this time. No more purchases, till I have developed an understanding of /auditioned as many of the choices around.