[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

The BBC journalist was indeed there. But what did he reveal? Just that forces were there to gather some debris. It could be speculated in any sense. It could be debris of fighter aircraft, civilian, enemy, drone, anything or it could be something else. We do not have anything concrete. If there are chances of govt hiding our own jets downed, it could be cover up of enemy jets downed too.

The journalist clearly said about a wreckage of unidentified aircraft. Why would the forces gather at a random location and deny access to people? Why would debris of a civilian aircraft be found unless it was an accident? If enemy jets were downed, the enemy pilot would have been in our custody right? Why would the govt cover up downing of enemy jets? It doesn't make any sense.

Somethings cannot be covered up.

Exactly, some things can't be covered up even if the govt wants to cover up which is exactly what is happening now. Not all X accounts and all newspapers are unreliable.

I still believe no jets were downed. Unless there is some concrete evidence. Govt seems to be in neither confirm nor deny mode. It could mean anything in the world.

This is another Dainik Bhaskar report about the Bhatinda crash and a victim seeking govt assistance after he was injured:

https://www.bhaskarenglish.in/amp/lo...135019070.html

This is India Today interviewing a witness of Bhatinda crash:

https://youtu.be/rTw_KH07ur4?si=3bSXoG-P-Ba-gq6Z

This video shows news about the Pampore crash in which a red colored truck belonging to the IAF can be seen:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJVmXc3v8dv/

These videos are about another crash in Akhnoor at midnight in which a missile can be seen launching:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DJVZ-JkzG9n/

https://youtu.be/Eom1mAeTbOw?si=N3M1dMaSrM6UGWii

https://x.com/AlexkennedyIran/status...598398/video/1

This website reports about a jet crash in Ramban district identifying the engine and ejection seat:

https://defence-blog.com/wreckage-of...nd-in-kashmir/

https://www.facebook.com/nainaa.dogr...40aB7S9Ucbxw6v

Any leading think tank or reputed media across the world are using terms like "apparently India lost atleast 1 jet". "Apparently" being the key here along with "atleast".

Finally, here is Rajdeep Sardesai talking about the truths of Operation Sindoor where he confirms the loss of fighter jets including a Rafale:

https://youtu.be/TWT3_63PtiQ?si=PK3F_9EHRsU8am2N

[mgoel]

It will be good for IAF to clearly communicate the losses if any. People will keep speculating otherwise !

[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

Finally, here is Rajdeep Sardesai talking about the truths of Operation Sindoor

Thanks for all the sources. Would they all still not count as speculation?

If it is specualting only, one can go even further. We downed our own copter previously by mistake. If jets were downed, and it is a big if, who knows who downed them. Was it enemy or an error. Everyone is seeking clarity while Pakistan citing Indian social media as proof. No one will know till we get it straight from the horse's mouth some day in the future.

BBC even went to Pak to Kasab's village and cast a shadow over his involvement or even existence. Who would believe that?

Media houses and social media can only be trusted till a certain limit. They only report what they could see or access.

[udzgodfather]

I think we should hold our horses for a bit, even if the planes are down inclusive of Rafale, knowing its down, is not going to bring it back. I recall few days ago fellow members requesting why the PMO is silent, why the PMO is not addressing the nation and then addressing to the nation and all of it happened eventually, news regarding planes down or not down will also be released eventually.


I know we all deserve the truth, but not at the cost of losing the element of surprise, knowing or not knowing how many mags your enemy has at times gives you the fighting edge. Just my 2 cents.


Ghost jets, real missiles: How India used 'dummy aircraft' to cripple Pakistan's air defence systems, standard disclaimer money control is not controlling my money in any way, nor associated with it, but this article do talks about surprising war tactics that can or was used by India, in a way it also talks about why there is a requirement of delay in releasing the information.

[wildsdi5530]

During a war, no one really knows what is happening except the high command. The left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.

The soldiers from General downwards are given orders and that is followed without question. As for civilians, they don't exist for all practical purposes. We are only supposed to know what our high command wants us to know.

There is no conspiracy to uncover. The events which happened will be published in posterity.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by wildsdi5530

There is no conspiracy to uncover. The events which happened will be published in posterity.

There is not a single conflict since WW2 that has seen endless controversies and (partial) cover up, mid communication, mis information etc. And Im thinking of conflicts in which reasonable well and open democracies were involved.

You can pick any UN mission and there will be such stories popping up, often decades later. Governments and the military never ever like to talk openly or candidly about what they are doing. Because they know that although from an overall poi t of view certain objectives might be achieved. But always there is collateral damage, atrocities, stupid mistakes and so on.

In proper working democracies, with good independent press, this tend to be uncovered eventually. But more often than not it takes decades.

Jeroen

[DrAakash]

Originally Posted by mgoel

He is associated with "wire" which is well known for it's anti government stand.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing! The media should always have a critical bias. How else are they supposed to do their job. No offence meant to you but we need to start questioning a lot of people once the current situation is taken care of.

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

There is not a single conflict since WW2 that has seen endless controversies and (partial) cover up, mid communication, mis information etc. And Im thinking of conflicts in which reasonable well and open democracies were involved.

You can pick any UN mission and there will be such stories popping up, often decades later. Governments and the military never ever like to talk openly or candidly about what they are doing. Because they know that although from an overall poi t of view certain objectives might be achieved. But always there is collateral damage, atrocities, stupid mistakes and so on.

In proper working democracies, with good independent press, this tend to be uncovered eventually. But more often than not it takes decades.

Jeroen

I do not wish to take this in a tangential direction, but unfortunately, at least amongst the leading nations, the concept of independent press is long gone or relegated to the margins. So everyone starts on the basis of a bias, (even we on this forum) and then work their way to a "neutral" ground, if time, money and socio-political will is there. And in recent times, the biases are so prominent and sharp that it will take decades to shake those off, to even begin looking for a neutral perspective.

[AirbusCapt]

Originally Posted by mgoel

It will be good for IAF to clearly communicate the losses if any. People will keep speculating otherwise !

Any reason they should do so? Are they in this for trp and eyeball views? Indians who speculate, feel worried for an alleged loss/or the lack of it are immature. The only outtake on this 4 day skirmish is that there was negligible damage to our property and lives, we took out all that the pakistanis tried to throw at us and succeeded in giving them a bloody nose at that. I think ops Sindoor was a success so far.
Let our armed forces do their job, our job is to stay out of speculation and stop reacting to shady news sources.

[SmartCat]

This might be India's own information warfare, but 'sources' are telling different news publications that PL-15E missile did not hit a single IAF jet.

https://idrw.org/chinese-pl-15e-miss...and-indian-ew/

[Gansan]

I had posted this in the War clouds thread earlier.

Some hardware will be lost, some personnel and members of the public will die in a conflict situation. It is a given. These are inevitable. War is a serious business.

So called weilding of "expensive" hardware to counter "cheap" ones of the enemy is also inevitable. After all the tools of war are meant to be used and used hard, not to be just flaunted. They are not objects of virtu to be merely displayed and admired! Did we achieve our objecives or not? That alone should matter.

Some of them will be lost in a war. At least we have the money to replace the loss quickly, the enemy doesn't.

Inexpensive hardware in sufficient numbers can still take out expensive,advanced ones if the latter is less in number. A couple of F 16s or even F 35s may not stand a chance against a dozen Mig 21s if it comes to a dog fight. I believe a Vietnamese general famously said during the war about their fleet of early Mig fighters against the more advanced USAF ones as "quantity has it's own quality!"

Also I believe losses can't be hidden from public eye when there is a hostile press and a hawkish opposition party. Not for long, at least. Remember that even the US navy dropped two F18 jets in to the sea from their aircraft carrier in succession recently!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I do not wish to take this in a tangential direction, but unfortunately, at least amongst the leading nations, the concept of independent press is long gone or relegated to the margins. e.

I have no idea what leading nations are. But I have said it many times, our esteemed membership has a very restricted view of how the press in large part of the world works.

Back to planes

Jeroen

[dust-n-bones]

Originally Posted by AirbusCapt

Any reason they should do so? Are they in this for trp and eyeball views? Indians who speculate, feel worried for an alleged loss/or the lack of it are immature. The only outtake on this 4 day skirmish is that there was negligible damage to our property and lives, we took out all that the pakistanis tried to throw at us and succeeded in giving them a bloody nose at that.

Well, the fact that our armed forces belong to a proud democratic country is a sufficient reason. They represent the citizens of india, unlike in say Pakistan where they are a law unto themselves, or in china where PLA reports to the communist party. Reporting back to us is their solemn duty.

Our armed forces have always held themselves to a higher standard, and reported their losses and victories relatively truthfully. There is no reason that should change now. Even if our public discourse and media have taken a depressingly jingoistic turn.

Please don't infantilize them if you think they will get 'demoralised' by transparency. Full disclosure is an opportunity to learn and do better for mature institutions.

We, as thinking citizens, should also grow out of this expectation that we only need good news. We should learn to accept war for what it is.

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

Thanks for all the sources. Would they all still not count as speculation?

Speculation is different from confirmation which is what Rajdeep said. It's not a covert operation that only the army and govt knows. In this case, there are eye witnesses, interviews with locals, images of wreckage collection, injured victims treated in hospitals, etc. Also, many international media have reported the news citing local government sources.

How can all these things be speculation? If everything is speculation, then every news about any plane crash, road accident, etc becomes just a speculation.

If jets were downed, and it is a big if, who knows who downed them. Was it enemy or an error. Everyone is seeking clarity while Pakistan citing Indian social media as proof. No one will know till we get it straight from the horse's mouth some day in the future.

Were the jets downed and who downed the jets are two different questions. First one is obvious and coming to the second, if it was by an error, it's like scoring a self goal similar to the helicopter downing in 2019. I think Pakistan also shared some flight recordings as proof but recall the Air Marshal saying PAF jets were downed. Now, can't the IAF share similar flight recordings as proof? How can India prove the downing of PAF jets inside Pakistan? Is there any way?

It's easy to use satellite images to prove damage to airbases because they are static and large but jet wreckages can be cleared in a few hours. Even if they are not cleared, can we know the exact location to get clear satellite images over different terrains? Is it even possible to know the exact location in a short time?

Only the IAF can answer how the jets were downed. I don't know if it's possible for the pilot to distinguish between an incoming AAM and a SAM or between enemy fire and friendly fire. Maybe the ground control knows it.

Media houses and social media can only be trusted till a certain limit. They only report what they could see or access.

If they are not allowed access to a crash site, does it mean the crash didn't occur? Locals are the first ones to know about a crash if it happens in their vicinity. The fact that nobody was allowed to go near the crash site itself is proof of cover up. Otherwise, we have many news reports and videos of jet crashes during peace time where the media has unrestricted access.

[mgoel]

One thing one need to keep in mind is that IAF will not leave the score unsettled. Meaning if IAF really lost 1-2 aircraft, it must have killed 1-2 aircrafts of enemy as well, it will not stop at a negative score. Remember the Kargil war where India lost a Mig-27. After few days, IAF shot down a Atlantique maritime petrol aircraft of Pakistan. During Balakot as IAF was very clear that it shot down a F-16 and hence no further escalation. You don't leave enemy at Psychological advantage