[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by androdev

Okay, I will make my question even simpler. For a regular joe like me someone presents me two options to go from X to Y. Either this G650 or a business/first class commercial plane. I want to maximise my comfort and safety. Keep in mind safety is not just the equipment alone, it also includes pilot, maintenance (and as recently found in Kathmandu, pilot's familiarity with the runway, etc.).

Androdev, let me try and share a view. Cant give you a perfect answer but sharing modules of information that could help frame an answer. Here goes....

The compliance, training, quality control, safety management, maintenance you need to follow is identical, with minor latitudes, whether you own one biz jet or an airline of 100 jetliners. In India most owners have one, two or three aircraft and the sheer complexity of the compliance comes as a tsunami shock both to their ability to get organized and sometimes the pockets too. You have to comply with all rules of your home country, many rules of the places you will land in and some rules of every country you will fly over. Given our love affair with rule following you can imagine the heart burn this causes. Pilot training and refreshers do get done but a private jet pilot in a business house with a revenue of $4bn will manage about 500 hours of flying a year compared to 3X for an airline pilot. But on the whole these pilots are a competent, if grossly overpaid, lot. ‎

The large fleet owners do a sound job of maintenance (almost always outsourced). As the craft don't fly so much there is enough time to address maintenance. For a large fleet owner ie Reliance, Aditya Birla, Tata maintenance would be at par with an airline and often better. The worry, at least in India and most third world nations, is with charter jets. It is a world under enormous pressure on costs, downtime and volatility of business and some corners do get cut - often more than just some. In India if you wish to ever charter then do so from a reputed business house who have spare blocks of days on their machines - then you are benefiting from the same safety and maintenance that Mr X billionaire is. The beds and meals can be as good as 1st class depending on your wallet. I will not claim the beds are better than a 1st class airline seat. Being stuck with 4 or 6 work colleagues/ customers for 12 hours or even 8 is a royal pain - the quiet privacy and anonymity of a good airline business seat is to be cherished. In terms of aircraft safety the upper-mid sized and large sized are as safe as an airliner and carry comparable navigation and flight safety systems.

Its horses for courses. No straight answers. In India way too many houses with revenues in the USD 2bn to 6bn range go for these jets partly for the convenience and more so for the status and then realize what white elephants they can be and how rapidly they depreciate. That's why folks like Premji and NRN never went down this route while brave souls like Punj Lloyd, Jindal Steel, Abhijeet Industries, Hindustan Construction, ABG, JP Gaur etc all went head long on a buying spree and burnt two holes in their pockets.

If your pay grade buys you first class airline travel and you travel internationally say 12 times a year then stay with your chosen airlines.

Sorry and then there is the parking problem....

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Androdev, You, me and most of the regular Joe's cannot think from the perspective of the intended customers/ users, so stop putting yourself in their shoes

Yes it will be impossible to put myself in their shoes as I work from home. I take a "flight of stairs" to reach my office Lol! My interest in planes is limited to leisure travel, think I stepped into the wrong room.

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Androdev, let me try and share a view.

Thank you. I recently went to Nepal and I spent more time researching flight safety than actual destination. So when some Kerala Jeweller buys a private jet, first thing that comes to my mind is: "will he get a decent pilot and maintenance also?" Or when I read about Helitaxi at Bangalore Airport, I go wow which brave soul is going to take that when chief ministers are crashing every other day!

As a large family flying business class (not uncommon in India btw) one wonders if a chartered flight is within reach but you look at the interiors, there is no match. Of course, the main concern has always been safety.

[gururajrv]

Well, certainly not an aircraft enthusiast! But, who can afford to travel in jets like these?

Common man - A big NO! When we think mostly of having an economical travel to keep the costs at check!

Upper middle class - I don’t think so because they prefer business class in bigger jets to have a pleasant travel experience when you can enjoy everything at half or even quarter of the fare price of this time machine from Gulf Stream.

Well business tycoons like Ambanis?!- they won’t charter around, rather would buy this off

For people who frequently travel between east - west might give a try for this if they consider time is money!

Basically, maintaining a jet of this cost might prove a bit costlier I believe, compared to the bigger jets and the financial benefits such as having more seats and feature, which gets them more tickets and money than these small ones do!

Again, not a big jet freak. But trying to add my perception here.

[vivtho]

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

Really ? For some reason Gulfstreams are a rarity in India. Dassaults are being bought left and right by all the big corporations. Gulfstreams are a minority in India anyway you look at it.

Extremely rare to see a Gulfstream in Mumbai's private jet lot, where Bombardiers and Dassaults are dominant. I always assumed it was due to Gulfstream's lack of servicing abilities in India that they lagged in Indian market share.

I believe that Dassaults were popular because the Tatas had an agreement to sell and service the brand in India. I'm not sure if that is still the case though.

[RajBajwa]

@Androdev,

I think your questions are answered up to an extent. However I may elaborate a bit more. I am no business tycoon and a regular joe and my thoughts are purely analytical and can be challenged.

If I were a business Tycoon with a net worth running into millions if not billions and my business requirements are such that for meetings I need to travel with an entourage of chief of staff, CEO, CFO, a couple of business analysts, Sales Heads, etc… then time is the essence for conducting meetings just before reaching the destination. I would want to sit down with the team and prepare for the meeting on the way to the destination. Commercial flights will not be convenient here.

On your point on safety:
I wouldn’t want a very large jet such as the Airbus or Boeing one which are made for the large commercial flights with a private bedroom and the other niceties. Yes, your point on safety is valid up to an extent that the safety records of large commercial jets is better, however we are not talking here about small planes with propellers. The likes of Gulfstream, Bombardier, and others are in the business for years and they are making the jets safer. The engines in these planes are tested and are from formidable engine manufacturers. The failure rate of the engines will be the same as that of the larger jet. The rest of the avionics, hyrdraulics will be regularly maintained to avoid any failures there. Why will a rich guy neglect those things in his jet. These planes are maintained by a team of experts which is a business in itself. For a millionaire/billionaire who can afford to spend millions on buying a private jet will not compromise in hiring an inexperienced pilot to save some small amount with the monthly remuneration.

So, it is not that scary to fly a smaller jet. Having said that, yes the risk is only there if the management of jet maintenance is compromised (very rare but possible). Turbulence is felt more in a smaller plane but that doesn’t mean it is dangerous.

I don’t think the highly successful business magnates buy these jets for taking their family to Europe or America. The Ultra HNIs probably will be flying first class in a large commercial plane when they have to travel alone or if their family needs to fly an international long haul flight for a vacation. Let’s not bring Mukesh Ambani into the picture here. He is an outlier with the billionaires in the country and he might use his jets to ferry his family around the world.

[veedub89]

Read this somewhere-

"For a private jet owner, the two happiest days in their lives are the ones on which they bought the plane and the day the plane got sold."

Private jets are notorious for spiralling costs but do make a lot of sense (at least in terms of the time saved) for CXOs/owners of large (read laaaaarge) corporations.

[mac187]

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

3. Lastly they move as a team, CFO/Secretary/assistant/executive staff.

Not sure if this holds true nowadays because of the clause most corporates have introduced against key personnel (mostly board members, CXO's) taking the same flight to avoid risk of losing everyone in a single tragedy. I had read the ONGC too is implementing this policy after the recent chopper crash.

[Whiplash7]

Do you have to still go through a security check when using a private jet? and should you inform the airport when you plan to take off in advance or can you just decide to leave anytime and then inform the tower or airport for take off clearance?

[NiInJa]

I had an opportunity to get inside a private jet at Lohegaon airport when I was a kid (1994 I guess, security was not that tight), courtesy my close relative who was at a higher post in Maharashtra Police. And no, I was not allowed to touch anything inside the cockpit. The maintenance staff was with us and he showed how the plane is controlled. I can only say that its a very different feeling and the privacy is unmatched.

As for me, I like to be surrounded with people and stretch my legs by taking a walk inside the plane on long journeys, so 12 hours in a tiny jet would be a bit boring, unless I am asleep throughout the journey

I have a rather stupid question, these high flying individuals can easily afford a private runway and parking spot as well in India. What are the rules in India to own/build a private runway ? I mean, why do I see Bajaj's plane at Pune Airport when he can easily land it on his test track at Chakan plant.(with some modifications).

[Whiplash7]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

I have a rather stupid question, these high flying individuals can easily afford a private runway and parking spot as well in India. What are the rules in India to own/build a private runway ? I mean, why do I see Bajaj's plane at Pune Airport when he can easily land it on his test track at Chakan plant.(with some modifications).

I could be wrong but I think this would make it difficult for the air traffic control to manage all the distributed airports.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Whiplash7

I could be wrong but I think this would make it difficult for the air traffic control to manage all the distributed airports.

Owners want their jet at a full fledged airport not only for access to maintenance & professional ground support but also to be able to attract flight crew into their employ. The pilots would typically not agree to be based at a remote station as their main operating hub. Building and managing an airport is so expensive that it makes the costs of a biz jet seem small. A absolutely bare shell airport with say an 8000' runway would incur operating costs about Rs 8 to 10 crores a year just to stand still. And this does not include the cost of capital to build it in the first place or depreciation either.

Originally Posted by Whiplash7

Do you have to still go through a security check when using a private jet? and should you inform the airport when you plan to take off in advance or can you just decide to leave anytime and then inform the tower or airport for take off clearance?

Yes you still need to go through full security but there is usually no queue. Yes you inform ATC well in advance, file your flight plan just like any other flight. No concessions. As the passenger you at least have the luxury of arriving 10 minutes before engine start up.

Originally Posted by veedub89

Read this somewhere-
"For a private jet owner, the two happiest days in their lives are the ones on which they bought the plane and the day the plane got sold."

You bet. Unless your business generates an EBT of USD 1bn + owning a large biz jet is not economical in India at least. In USA with fractional ownership (ie time share) even top professionals get into the game. Azim Premji, NRN, Deepak Parekh, Uday Kotak are but some highly successful names who run very large corporations but have lived very well without owning a jet.

Originally Posted by vivtho

I believe that Dassaults were popular because the Tatas had an agreement to sell and service the brand in India. I'm not sure if that is still the case though.

Dassault and Bombardier sell well in India as they are more flexible on price and extended support - they are also somewhat cheaper for comparable models. Reality check: Lagos, Nigeria - just that one city has more business jets based there than all of India. Since 2011 India has had a roughly static population of business jets, turboprops and choppers.

Originally Posted by androdev

Yes it will be impossible to put myself in their shoes as I work from home. I take a "flight of stairs" to reach my office

You have a wealth that none of the biz jet owners do.

I recently went to Nepal and I spent more time researching flight safety than actual destination.

No disrespect for that otherwise lovely country but where air safety goes I would take two prayer beads along - one for each hand.

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Actually there are/were a handful of commercial flights that did Mumbai-NYC in 14-16 hours (non-stop).

So that bring me to my questions for D33-PAC:

1) What would a 'sensible' (non-full throttle) time be from the G650?
2) If a commercial jet was going full-throttle, what would its time be (and would it have enough fuel to do this trip full throttle)?
3) In addition to the Extended Range, is the impressive thing about the G650 the speed? Or is it just that very few private jets can do such a long trip?

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

So, the 13 hours thing was a one-off test by Gulfstream, but can this plane, with a full load of passengers do a Bombay-NYC direct flight? Even if it takes 16 hours instead of 13? Because 16 hours is still a massive improvement over the current 24-28 hours of commercial jets with a stop over.

Not my area of expertise and I will lean on others to add more. Right now as it is relatively new we do not have much more than the OEMs claims to go by.* The jet they state flies 7500 nautical miles while cruising at Mach 0.85 with 8 pax - that's ~900 kmph at cruising altitudes. That will fly you BOM-NYC in 14 to 15 hours with allowances for head winds, climbing in steps but not for major diversions,circling etc. And you will land with the last 10% odd of your fuel load. They say the top speed is Mach 0.9 or ~950 kmph. Theoretically that could save you 45 to 60 minutes at best. So what do these speeds mean. A Boeing 777 cruises at Mach 0.84 or ~892 kmph at 36,000' and has a top sustained speed of 945 kpmh. As you see the speeds are not so different. Yes both aircraft could for sake of a test be flown at their top speed over the course. Where a biz jet like G650 scores is the ability to cruise high above the limitations of the main airways. So an airliner would typically fly long distance starting at say ~30,000' and would climb in stages to ~40,000'. The G650 and others like it will start their cruise at 41,000' and climb in steps to 51,000' ie it flies on an elevated and almost empty air corridor. The impressive piece is the range and the cruising altitude. Mach 0.83 to 0.88 is about the peak cruising speed for any transonic airliner. This upper limit was achieved 60 years ago with the Boeing 707 and hasn't changed much. Designers don't try to push for speed but instead for the lowest drag at and around Mach 0.80 to Mach 0.88 or so. Beyond that diminishing returns set in. Hope this helps.

Originally Posted by Raj_RD

Yup the owner seems to be Bank of Utah trustee, not sure what that means.

The aircraft is almost always housed in an SPV. And it is the SPV that gets sold - similar to what happens in big real estate deals. That Bank of Utah Trustee is an escrow agent through which the monies are paid and title deed transferred. It 'owns' the aircraft for a couple of hours to a couple of days. It protects the buyer and seller from a last minute default by either,

* These are approximate figures to illustrate the discussion but they are directionally correct give or take 5%

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

No disrespect for that otherwise lovely country but where air safety goes I would take two prayer beads along - one for each hand.

I believe most countries will not accept Nepalese aircraft in their airspace because they do not meet any safety standard. True?

Regards
Sutripta

[Stratosphere]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

I believe most countries will not accept Nepalese aircraft in their airspace because they do not meet any safety standard. True?

Regards
Sutripta

I believe no Nepali carrier is allowed in EU airspace or the US. They do not meet the respective regulation standards of the territories.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

I believe most countries will not accept Nepalese aircraft in their airspace because they do not meet any safety standard. True?

A bit outside my body of knowledge. From what little I know Nepal Airlines is on the banned list of the European Union as are some 100+ other airlines/ charter operators for not complying with the EU's standards of flight ops, training, and maintenance. Nepal Airline however does fly scheduled services to India, and a few ports in Middle East and SE Asia. The real risk is with the small aircraft operators who fly to small and difficult airstrips combined with a overall infrastructure and compliance frame work which is very very weak. This unlike Maldives, another small country, who also operate 60 to 70 small turboprop seaplanes and do so with an altogether much much higher standard of safety and maintenance.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

YYes you still need to go through full security but there is usually no queue

In the USA I seem to recall it is different. No security at all as far as I can remember. My home base was Johnsson Executive Airport near Kansas City which had a large base of private and chartered jets. Busiest time was when Nascar was in town. Dozen of private and chartered jets flying in and out with the teams, drivers, VIPs, rich gits etc. Limo's just rock up to the ramp and pick up and or drop off the passenger right on the aircraft door/stairs. No security.

When I fly with passengers there is no security for them either.

Jeroen