[quickdraw]

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

The lack of commotion on this thread is appalling, I guess less plane lovers here on TBHP ?!

Hey, I am just excited that aviation enthusiasts are coming of age in India, for the longest time I used to think I am all alone here! Got any pictures of the interior? I am not much aware of business jet powerplants and specifics but curious to learn more about them. What is the life of the airframe like?

Originally Posted by androdev

I am not sure how I will react to it. I am not trying to be argumentative, I would really like to know what others think.

Let me try and answer this, for the ultra-rich the only thing they can't buy is 'time' so they often will spend a copious amount of money to gain time, be it 10 mins or an hour. A business jet allows them to do that, the perfect analogy is a Mercedes S Class and a Mercedes Luxury Bus.

Also, small aircraft might have a worse safety record but that's because all smaller aircraft are bunched together in one category. The maintenance and servicing of the plane are outsourced and I doubt someone who can afford a business jet will skimp on service costs.

In commercial aircraft, the regulators are responsible for our safety, and we very well know how that has worked out with the recent DGCA fiasco where a private citizen had to file a PIL after over 30 engine failures . These engines were grounded by regulators the world over but our dear DGCA came up with an amazing rule that only 1 engine with the affected lot can be used along with a non-affected engine.

"India's largest airline IndiGo, which flies four out of every 10 Indians, has had to replace Pratt & Whitney engines on its 32 A320 Neo aircraft at least 69 times in the period May 2016-November 2017."

Source

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by androdev

Yes it will be impossible to put myself in their shoes as I work from home.

I think a good example of someone who could use a private jet is an elite athlete. Lewis Hamilton (F1 driver) owns one and it makes sense. He needs to be in a different country every week and probably wants to absolutely minimize the time travelling (that means waiting for flights, travelling to major airports instead of the nearest airport) and maximize the flexibility of going wherever he wants at the last minute.

And from a monetary point of view, I imagine you don't buy a jet like this when you can afford it. Rather, you buy it when its cost really feels like a drop in the bucket for your financials.

[Whiplash7]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

In the USA I seem to recall it is different. No security at all as far as I can remember.
Jeroen

Makes sense since its a private ride and you are not flying with the public. Also being able to drive up-to to the plane sounds cool

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Whiplash7

Makes sense since its a private ride and you are not flying with the public. Also being able to drive up-to to the plane sounds cool

Actually, as a private pilot I can take anybody from the public and charge them for the ride. What I can charge is defined though. Essentially, only their share of the operating cost of the flight.

Some of these business jets are privately owned, but most are basically chartered by organizations or the odd individual. So to be honest I am not quite sure when a chartered GA aircraft needs passengers to go through security. But in general, at least that is/was my impression, all General Aviation in the USA seems pretty relaxed when it comes to security pertaining to their passengers and crews.

Same is true for the typical GA airports. On most you can still walk onto the ramp and the hangar and you might not be stopped.

But then again, I don't think I have ever heard about GA planes being hijacked?
There might have been the odd case I assume.

Jeroen


Jeroen

[Deepak Gopal V]

Originally Posted by D33-PAC

Really ? For some reason Gulfstreams are a rarity in India. Dassaults are being bought left and right by all the big corporations. Gulfstreams are a minority in India anyway you look at it.

Extremely rare to see a Gulfstream in Mumbai's private jet lot, where Bombardiers and Dassaults are dominant. I always assumed it was due to Gulfstream's lack of servicing abilities in India that they lagged in Indian market share.

G650 has a multi year waiting list which is one of the reasons why people go for Dassault. The alternative is to buy a used one and even that is a rarity with its own demand. Some people also prefer the additional safety offered by the 3 engine configuration of Dassault over the twin engine configuration of Gulfstream.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

But in general, at least that is/was my impression, all General Aviation in the USA seems pretty relaxed when it comes to security pertaining to their passengers and crews.
Same is true for the typical GA airports. On most you can still walk onto the ramp and the hangar and you might not be stopped.

A quick search on the internet shows that what you mentioned is absolutely true. Walking on to the ramp, just like that, may not be possible at big airports with large commercial operations like JFK, LGA, EWR, LAX etc. But in US, where there are a number of convenient smaller airports available, I don't know whether any private and chartered small planes/biz jets will prefer to go to the big airports.
Interesting read:
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3
Link 4
The last link is from FAA and the above mentioned holds good only for domestic flights. For flying international, you have to go through customs checks and formalities (obviously ).

All civil, private aircraft entering the U.S. must first land at an airport of entry before continuing to their destinations, unless other arrangements are made with U.S. CBP. Advance notification must be provided electronically to CBP by means of the eAPIS. See the APIS section for more information.

Customs will expect aircraft to land at the arrival time entered on their flight plan. Arriving up to 10 minutes late is acceptable. Passengers and crew should remain with the aircraft until a Customs official arrives and be prepared to show valid documents for persons and aircraft.

Some aircraft arriving from foreign locations south of the United States must land for Customs processing at the nearest airport to the border or coastline crossing point, unless an overflight exemption has been granted (CFR Title 19, 122.24).

[gunsho]

Originally Posted by androdev

Okay, I will make my question even simpler. For a regular joe like me someone presents me two options to go from X to Y. Either this G650 or a business/first class commercial plane. I want to maximise my comfort and safety. Keep in mind safety is not just the equipment alone, it also includes pilot, maintenance (and as recently found in Kathmandu, pilot's familiarity with the runway, etc.). What should I pick? If someone gives me a Yacht to use for family holiday on a Switzerland lake, I will be thrilled. But if someone asks me to take my family on a holiday in a private jet, I am not sure how I will react to it. I am not trying to be argumentative, I would really like to know what others think.

In a way, it make sense to rent than to own. And also most points would be relative, as you said, it probably is flight phobia. I would never get into a yacht and stay peacefully with just waters around.

In a different view, a 350 Kms stretch would take similar time in a Shatapthi express and a car. One who has never owned a car or used only uber, would feel safe in Satapthi or than the car right? But most of us here would definitely prefer a car anytime Comfort is very much relative, its not just the bed, as many have pointed out, timings / privacy / service lot will come. I feel, its very much relative. in their shoes, private jet probably makes sense. From our shoes, it may be different.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by androdev

Okay, I will make my question even simpler. For a regular joe like me someone presents me two options to go from X to Y. Either this G650 or a business/first class commercial plane. I want to maximise my comfort and safety. Keep in mind safety is not just the equipment alone, it also includes pilot, maintenance (and as recently found in Kathmandu, pilot's familiarity with the runway, etc.). What should I pick? If someone gives me a Yacht to use for family holiday on a Switzerland lake, I will be thrilled. But if someone asks me to take my family on a holiday in a private jet, I am not sure how I will react to it. I am not trying to be argumentative, I would really like to know what others think.

Personal preference and also what is available. In the USA lots of ordinary folks own or co-own their own planes. Not necessarily jets. I was co-owner of a club that owned and operated four single engine propellor planes, and we used it for family trips rather than driving.

Even renting a jet for a private trip is accessible for many people in the USA. And they have the infrastructure, the plane and crews to cater for such. In one of the US aviation magazine a regular column is written by a guy who was a surgeon and always owned a plane. When he turned sixty he retired from the hospital and became a professional pilot flying business jets. After three years he was promoted captain and now he has just stopped flying commercial, but he has bought his own private jet. The same one he used to fly commercially!

Originally Posted by A350XWB

A quick search on the internet shows that what you mentioned is absolutely true. Walking on to the ramp, just like that, may not be possible at big airports with large commercial operations like JFK, LGA, EWR, LAX etc. But in US, where there are a number of convenient smaller airports available, I don't know whether any private and chartered small planes/biz jets will prefer to go to the big airports.
)).

Dont underestimate these so called smaller airports. There are literally hundreds of airports with serious fascilities and proper runways that cater for GA type of aviation.

Lots of these airports are former Airforce base or still have a dual commercial/GA/militarary role. If the runway can accomodate a F18 or a B52 it will do fine for my Cessna 150 or any Gulfstream.

Loved to land my Cessna 150 on the 14.000 feet runway out at Olathe. Former Airforce base, still has an operational tanker squadron out there. So find yourself wedges in on the taxiway between a F15 and a KC135. I always warned the tankerguys to be weary of my wake turbulence, which always got a good laugh!

And it is all about convenience. usually located at the outerskirts of major town and or suburbs. Free parking, no congestion on the ramp and or taxiways. So it is lot more hassle free and quicker than going commercial throught the main commercial airports.

Just about all large and or international airports usually have special designated terminal and fascilities for GA including sometimes dedicated runways. I used to fly my little plane into Kansas City International and other major destinations just for fun. Once picked up some friends who came to stay who flew into Dallas from Europe. Picked them up in our club Diamond.

Jeroen

[Ragavsr]

This thread doesn't elicit much response because most people can't even aspire to own one. Similar to how the BMW and Audi reviews don't get as much response as the mass market ones.

Owning a corporate jet is only a stuff of dreams that even billionaires can't afford.

Even if I have an extremely successful career and future, the maximum I can aspire to is something like a Cessna 162 Skycatcher. Small aircraft which I can pilot myself for fun.

I would be lucky if I am able to afford that in the future. Considering that new ones cost 100-150k $ , there is a small ray of hope considering that the upper middle class buys luxury cars costing as much. Used ones available for half that of new ones.

The plane is not fast by any means - 188 mph / 302 kmph top speed and a range of 1200 km . For leisure, it should be good enough. At least you will be able to hit top speeds, unlike the stupid speed limits on highways we have world over excepting Germany which make a mockery of fast cars rendering them pointless.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Dont underestimate these so called smaller airports. There are literally hundreds of airports with serious fascilities and proper runways that cater for GA type of aviation.

I was in no way underestimating the smaller airports.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

And it is all about convenience. usually located at the outerskirts of major town and or suburbs. Free parking, no congestion on the ramp and or taxiways. So it is lot more hassle free and quicker than going commercial throught the main commercial airports.

And this is exactly the reason why I mentioned that people will not prefer to go to those bigger airports. In US, with number of privately owned planes, they actually can maintain those many airports. In a country like India, we cannot imagine having something like that.

[maddy42]

Amazing plane to add to the Tata collection. Wish i would be able to travel in one in my life.

Coming to security at small airports: In the states i was a part of a group of people contracted over a weekend to be Black SUV chauffers. One of the thing it did permit us to do was drive up to the runway to pick our paymasters and do the same while dropping them back. Later realised our paymaster was a Billionaire travelling to celebrate his wife's 40th bday(he was 70).
The party flew in on 4 jets, 2 smaller ones while 2 were like a 60 seater aircraft. Thats when i realised that folks care for their privacy and sometimes have no idea what to do with their money :0

Most interesting two days of my life. We did not get a chance to hop on the planes, but i did follow the planes tail number for sometime before i got bored of seeing all exotic locations they were flying into everyday!

Facilities in the small airports are Good enough. Yeah they dont have a fancy terminal, but they dont need it as no one waits or loiters around. Get in get out.

Maddy

[i74js]

For a regular Joe like me these are machine that can give wings to anyone's dream. I have seen one in Europe during an airshow where perspective buyers were shown a customized GS and believe me, though the dimensions may be small, what they had created out of it was a piece of art.

These are very similar to luxury personal Yachts, and do not depreciate so quickly. You may not find GS in used "plane" market easily.

[Rehaan]

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Where a biz jet like G650 scores is the ability to cruise high above the limitations of the main airways. So an airliner would typically fly long distance starting at say ~30,000' and would climb in stages to ~40,000'. The G650 and others like it will start their cruise at 41,000' and climb in steps to 51,000'

When you go higher, isn't the trip effectively longer? (Both, in terms of the angle of ascent/descent featuring in, as well as more-so, the larger radius of your trip around the globe).

Or is this offset by the thinner atmosphere and therefore less aerodynamic resistance?

[KiloAlpha]

Originally Posted by Rehaan

When you go higher, isn't the trip effectively longer? (Both, in terms of the angle of ascent/descent featuring in, as well as more-so, the larger radius of your trip around the globe).

Or is this offset by the thinner atmosphere and therefore less aerodynamic resistance?

Yummy! Let us do some math now!

To begin with, assume the earth is a perfect sphere. And, let us take a flight from Mumbai (BOM) to London (LHR). Distance at sea level between these two airports is 3900 nautical miles, which is about 7222km.
Now, 7222km is the length of the arc at sea level between BOM & LHR. Earth's radius is 6371km.

Plug the above radius and distance in to the formula for Length of Arc (2*pi*r*angle/360), we get the angle of arc between BOM and LHR as 64.95 degrees.

Now, let's assume that the airplane does perfect VTOL from ground level to cruising altitude and vice versa.

At 35000 feet (10668m) of cruise, the radius of the aircraft increases from 6371 to 6381.668km. At this radius, if the airplane flies from BOM to LHR, then the length of arc increases. Remember that the places are fixed on the sphere hence angle of arc stays the same. Plug this back in the Length of Arc formula, we get a length of arc - flying distance - of 7234km

At 50000 feet (15240m) of cruise, we get length of arc of 7239km.

The difference between the two is 5km.

So, at about 600 km/h, how long will it take to cover 5km? Half a minute!! That's the difference in flying time based on arc distance cruising 35000 feet versus 50000 feet.

[V.Narayan]

Dear Rehaan, An aircraft flying a great circle route at 50,000' (~15 kms up) versus one flying at 30000' (~9 kms up) adds about 5 kms to its distance for every 10,000 kms flown horizontally. The benefits of thinner air and colder ambient temperatures outweigh the extra 6 kms of vertical climb and 5 kms of horizontal travel. Hope this helps. - Narayan

PS: this is rough maths. But basically saying what Kilo Alpha has in more accurate terms. Relative to earth's diameter of ~12750 kms our flying is but a whisker above the surface!