[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by SCORPION

Then it was a miracle indeed that the pilots remained unaffected and were able to land the aircraft safely.

I guess that the pilots too were affected. They must have donned their emergency oxygen masks.

BTW, the experienced pilots may be themselves able to sense gradual depressurization before the warning is displayed.

Question to pilots on the forum: Is there any simulator training where the pilots physically experience a cabin altitude at which oxygen masks deploy?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

Question to pilots on the forum: Is there any simulator training where the pilots physically experience a cabin altitude at which oxygen masks deploy?

Not that I am aware of for commercial jets. Maybe others no of one.

Part of flight simulator training does involve loss of cabin pressure exercises and pilots will need to don their oxygen mask in accordance with procedures, but there is no actual physical loss of pressure.

I know various airforces around the world have equipement to simulate loss of pressure, but it is typically just a tank in which you are put and they lower the air pressure. You might be asked to perform some simple tasks.

It is not a flight simulator, it is an environment to teach pilots and crews to recognise the early signs of oxygen depletion in the body. The problem is it creeps on to you very gradually. You might not recognise it until it is too late.

Jeroen

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Part of flight simulator training does involve loss of cabin pressure exercises and pilots will need to don their oxygen mask in accordance with procedures, but there is no actual physical loss of pressure.

I know various airforces around the world have equipement to simulate loss of pressure, but it is typically just a tank in which you are put and they lower the air pressure. You might be asked to perform some simple tasks.
Jeroen

Ok, so it seems to be a test of the cognitive abilities in the event of depressurization.

Originally Posted by SCORPION

Its easier to blame individual pilots rather than blaming the system which results in such incidents.

I came across the following interesting view of some pilot on a pilot forum:

In the earlier version of Boeing 737 (737-200), the first item in the 'After take-off' checklist was "Air conditioning and pressurization......Checked." This was later replaced by two items: PACK (Pneumatic air conditioning kit) ON and BLEED(this is air vent from the compressor stage of the engine) ON. Since the PACK automatically regulates the cabin pressure, there is no separate check if the cabin is pressurized.

Secondly, it is the Pilot Monitoring (PM) who announces the points in the 'After take-off' checklist and also replies himself (Yes, No, Checked etc.) on these points. If the PM is the FO, the Pilot Flying (PM), who is the captain, is paying scant attention to FO's monologue. This pilot opined that the earlier system, where one pilot challenges and the other responds, is safer.

[honeybee]

It does make sense for one pilot to challenge and for the other to respond, as the better process.

However it still leaves a chance that both the pilots are treating that as just a necessary chore and not really applying their minds.

[Hayek]

This is quite a disconcerting incident. One such incident would be bad enough, but coming shorty after the Riyadh incident where Jet pilots tried to take off from a disused taxiway, it makes me wonder if there is a cultural problem with the airline, which could have developed due to the recent financial woes Jet is suffering from. And if Emirates buys Etihad, Jet probably has no one left to bail it out. Not good news for Indian frequent flyers, esp Bombay based ones.

[anjan_c2007]

Quite a disastrous experience for the passengers on the fateful flight. It has tarnished the image of the airline. The crew has been negligent in performing its duties, to maintain the optimum cabin pressure.

The seriously affected passengers, who bled from their noses and ears had to be rushed to the hospital. Some preferred to stay back in Mumbai, while the rest preferred to board alternate flights.

The next move by some passengers could be to sue the airline. And they stand to win the legal battle though the judgment could come after three to four years or maybe more. It will further tarnish the name of the airline.

As reported, the airline is making losses and their staffers are getting their salaries paid very late every month. This surely affects the motivation, well-being and morale of the staffers. It needs to be looked into by the airline, that was supposedly among the best in India (second to Indigo but). Such an affected temperament of the staffers can be a triggering factor for lapses by them while performing their duties.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Hayek

One such incident would be bad enough, but coming shorty after the Riyadh incident where Jet pilots tried to take off from a disused taxiway, it makes me wonder if there is a cultural problem with the airline, which could have developed due to the recent financial woes Jet is suffering from.

Financial woes do have potential to demotivate the employees and create cultural problems. But at least the crew onboard need to introspect and realize that they are risking their own life (and the well being of their own families) too by letting the work practices loose.

By diluting the focus and attention, the financial woes are not going to be addressed.

A question to members from aviation industry:
We have heard a lot about the dedication, sincerity and quest for quality from the Japanese workmen. Are there any Japanese pilots working in India? How is their work culture?

[TKMCE]

Even before the recent financial problems at Jet , there has been other incidents which doesn't inspire confidence.it has been true for other Indian airlines as well but Jet seems to have a higher share than others based on published reports in the DGCA website, even after taking into account their much higher scale of operations compared to an airline like Vistara.

The minister has done a right thing by ordering a safety audit but the same has to be done properly and not be a cosmetic exercise.

[fordday]

All the pax and crew were fortunate that the pilots didn't suffer from pressure loss and have been able to turn back and land safely.

Another thing is, if the pilots noticed the pressurization is down and assuming there was no leak in the cabin, how long does it takes to re pressurize it? Couldn't the pilots have done it?

Fordday.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by fordday

Another thing is, if the pilots noticed the pressurization is down and assuming there was no leak in the cabin, how long does it takes to re pressurize it? Couldn't the pilots have done it?

Fordday.

This is not yet known officially but some professionals think that the pilots eventually might have pressurized the cabin and the bleedings might have been a result of quick re-pressurization rather than the de-pressurization.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

...
A question to members from aviation industry:
We have heard a lot about the dedication, sincerity and quest for quality from the Japanese workmen. Are there any Japanese pilots working in India? How is their work culture?

Not an expert, but:

Look up the definition of "power distance".

Wikipedia has a page on Impact of culture on aviation safety
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact...viation_safety

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by SCORPION

Then it was a miracle indeed that the pilots remained unaffected and were able to land the aircraft safely.

As far as we know the plane never climbed further than about 10.000 feet. That must have been the time the pilots noticed something was amiss. The pax oxygen mask don’t auto-deploy until reaching 14.000 feet. So the pilots must have deployed the masks manually just as a precaution. We don’t know what went on in the cockpit, but there must have been several alarms going off by now.

As anybody that has been to Leh will tell you, being at 10-11.000 feet isn’t a big thing. You can still breath normally

I pilot unpressurised planes and at 10.000 feet there is no formal requirement for supplementary oxygen at that altitude. Although it is recommended if you’re up there for longer periods.

Simply put the rules on supplementary oxygen are:

Supplemental oxygen is needed for flying more than 30 minutes at cabin pressure altitudes of 12,500 feet or higher, pilots must use oxygen at all times above 14,000 feet and each occupant must be provided supplemental oxygen above 15,000 ft.

We don’t really know whether there was a system fault or pilot error or possibly both. But the cabin pressure as such doesn’t affect the planes safety at all. It’s only when the pilots become unconscientious when you have a major problem.

Landing a plane with a wonky cabin pressure is no problem at all as it doesn’t affect the flying characteristics of the plane.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

As far as we know the plane never climbed further than about 10.000 feet. That must have been the time the pilots noticed something was amiss. The pax oxygen mask don’t auto-deploy until reaching 14.000 feet. So the pilots must have deployed the masks manually just as a precaution.

As anybody that has been to Leh will tell you, being at 10-11.000 feet isn’t a big thing. You can still breath normally

I pilot unpressurised planes and at 10.000 feet there is no formal requirement for supplementary oxygen at that altitude. Although it is recommended if you’re up there for longer periods.

So it is indeed possible that the passengers suffered because of rapid pressurization rather than the de-pressurization.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

So it is indeed possible that the passengers suffered because of rapid pressurization rather than the de-pressurization.

It's not so much the absolute pressure (within limits obviously) as the pace at which a pressure differential occurs that causes most discomfort.

Jeroen

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Mr. Hathi, a passenger from this flight shared his experience:

All of a sudden, the oxygen masks came down. Cabin crew announced that it is necessary to wear the mask as oxygen level inside the aircraft has reduced. Air pressure inside the aircraft remained low for 45 minutes. It was suffocating and difficult to breath. There was no communication from the cockpit.

The passengers could not know what was happening. The cabin crew, when called, was not responding. While attempting to call the crew, he (Mr. Hathi) suddenly realized that ears and nose of a passenger were bleeding. And then he noticed another one who was also bleeding. And then another.

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/www.i...y/1/12513.html

Another news
An NGO on Friday demanded compensation for those who suffered injuries due to low cabin pressure in a Mumbai-Jaipur flight on Thursday, besides approaching the Sahar police station seeking an FIR against the five crew members.
https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/mumba...w/65906913.cms