[vharihar]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

The next move by some passengers could be to sue the airline. And they stand to win the legal battle though the judgment could come after three to four years or maybe more. It will further tarnish the name of the airline.

A class action lawsuit (PIL) is a *must*, with
very harsh punitive damages to the airline as well as min 1L compensation to be paid by the airline to each passenger. Only then will it serve as a deterrent and airlines will take it seriously.

Btw, I'm surprised this isn't automated. In the sense, if it was left in manual mode, there atleast ought to be severe audio warnings (just like when altitude is low, there is a synthesized audio message "Too low, Pull up". See the movie Sully)

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by vharihar

A class action lawsuit (PIL) is a *must*, with

very harsh punitive damages to the airline as well as min 1L compensation to be paid by the airline to each passenger. Only then will it serve as a deterrent and airlines will take it seriously.



Btw, I'm surprised this isn't automated. In the sense, if it was left in manual mode, there atleast ought to be severe audio warnings (just like when altitude is low, there is a synthesized audio message "Too low, Pull up". See the movie Sully)

You are jumping to conclusions before we even know what happened.
Irrespective, I have never understood why anybody should get compensation over and above real cost and damages sustained by the respective persons.

It must have been an unsettling experience for most of the passengers, but at the end of the day this was more about some discomfort and a scary experience and likely not to be much more.

As with a lot of systems on an jet airliner, it can be operated manually and automatically and it is up to the pilot to switch it onto auto or manual. There are various warning that would alert the pilots when the system wasn't operating normally, both in manual as well as in auto mode.

It is one of the reasons I find it remarkable that the pilots had just forgotten to switch it on. Even if they did, it would not have mattered, they would get various alerts and would/should have been able to make the necessary adjustments. So the story as it is currently in the public domain leaves many question unanswered. I don't buy it at all.

Before demanding class action I suggest it might be better to first understand what actually happened.

With respect to class actions, apart from my earlier comments regarding compensation (which is irrespective of it being class action or any other legal proceedings) I don't believe in class actions.

If class actions were helpful in ensuring corporates make no mistakes I don't understand why there are so many class action in for instance the USA. I see no benefits for society at large through class actions. Good consumer law that allows the individual to get fair and speedy compensation, and accessible for all, is a far better mechanism I believe.

Jeroen

[TKMCE]

You try to take off without even seeing what is staring at you in your face...some .people still have justifications

You land blind on the seventh attempt on a " now or never" scenario with "terrain" warnings blaring.... some people still have justifications


You land in a non operational runaway.in very high visibility... there are some people who respond ..."so what....it happens all the time"

You suffer from injuries and ask for compensation.... there are some people who advocate asking for a certified copy of the medical bills and insist that claims be settled on actuals and not a penny (or rather rupee) more.

And clearly some still have an axe to grind against Ralph Nader.after all these years. which is rather interesting as this is primarily an automative forum.


Now back more definitely to the topc . While definitely everyone has a right to his/her opinion, there is no point running away from some underlying issues here including but not limited to CRM and even basic crew competence. There are many people even in these forums who as frequent flyers on India's airlines have a right to be concerned or even alarmed about what is happening and ask questions. Some of it have been manifested in the various posts here in this thread.

It is high time we need a Ralph Nader for Indian aviation.

The justification for the same..? .All those reports which has been published (and the one which has not been published yet but available in Team BHP) about the recent incidents and accidents which has involved India's airlines.

Aviation deregulation in India post Independence saw a string of accidents. In USA domestic deregulation in the Carter era saw likewise. At one period in the 1960s and 1970s, big name Pan Am became so lax , they had a string of avoidable accidents many of which were fatal.

While re regulation may be a step backward in India at this point of time, before things get out of hand ,in my opinion it is high time the ministry and the regulator start getting tough after doing a proper safety audit..

[vharihar]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Irrespective, I have never understood why anybody should get compensation over and above real cost and damages sustained by the respective persons.

Clearly you don't understand the meaning of the word "deterrent".

No wonder we have several instances of repeat offences in India, the same kind again and again (bad roads, floods in the monsoon, etc), and then we wonder why!?!?

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Irrespective, I have never understood why anybody should get compensation over and above real cost and damages sustained by the respective persons.

In India, I understand that the court considers the minimum expenses needed for treatment and legal case (need based, not 'want' based) and the potential loss of income, if any, due to disability. Compensation is meant to indemnify the victim, at the best. No hefty compensations for earning profits.

Originally Posted by TKMCE

... there is no point running away from some underlying issues here including but not limited to CRM and even basic crew competence.

Along with the lack of basic crew competence, these incidents also project overconfidence and negligence.

When I select my flights, I no more just look at the convenient time and low fare. I look at these only after filtering out two airlines (for the domestic flights). I don't mind average service by the cabin crew, I don't mind if I don't get food included in the ticket cost. I don't mind if I need to board a bus on the way to aircraft instead of an aerobridge. But I do mind cockpit crew incompetence and their casual attitude.

[pedrolourenco]

If you watch Air Crash Investigations on Nat Geo, there was an episode where a 737 from Cyprus to Athens crashed because of this. The Pilots forgot to set the Cabin Presure switch to Auto (It was set to manual during some maintenance). Everyone in the plane including Pilots were unconcious. The autopilot flew the plane to Athens and put it into a holding pattern. The fuel ran out and it crashed killing everyone.

[V.Narayan]

Caveat - This is not a comment on the Jet Airways incident or on the trauma, anxiety and injury suffered by the unfortunate passengers. This post is on the style and tone with which lay observers and social media experts approach the civil aviation industry. You may have noticed that out of over two dozen active aviation professionals, owners, pilots, engineers, IAF officers, Naval pilots on this forum none other than Jeroen has chosen to comment. And there is a reason behind it. You cannot decide who or what is guilty after watching the first scene in a movie or reading the first 3 pages in a novel or the headlines of a news story.

I am not for a moment condoning the Jet Airways' pilots if they are at fault [which they well could be] or that Jet in recent days seems to pop up for the wrong reasons rather frequently.

But speaking for my fraternity, I do find it deplorable that social media experts and scalp seekers and journalists hold trial by media without finding out all the facts or letting the investigation be completed and all the while displaying depth of aviation knowledge that is quite honestly less than microscopic. It is lamentable that Lalit Gupta of the DGCA made his comments even before the investigation starts. Normally Lalit is one of the better DGCA officials by far. It is not like him to do this unless our media has put words into his mouth. The interesting and unfortunately unique thing about aviation today in the day of Youtube and social media is that everyone who has viewed four Youtube videos is an expert on what is from a process management point of view probably the most complex and most integrated industry in the world.

It could be the fault of the pilots & if it is send them home or into some serious re-training. It could be that the system failed halfway through their climb. It could be that the pressurization didn't fail fully but only partly thus delaying the audible alarm. And I haven't yet got started into the engineering side of part malfunctions or maintenance mistakes that could have happened. And of course it could be that the pilots were indeed careless beyond compare.

Globally the aviation industry's safety record and quest for constant improvement comes from our transparency and introspection and openly sharing the findings so all of us all over the world can read and learn from each others' mistake. We are like an open architecture plan for process & safety put in place long before software's open architecture came into being. This transparency is nurtured by a culture that tries not to get into witch hunts and tries to stay with a fact based approach. This is different from the scalp capture culture of social media and our TRP chasing media - hardly conducive for open sharing of mistakes and mutual learning. Sadly India's DGCA does not follow transparency and speed in the right spirit or form either in investigations or audits which is why as TKCME rightly puts it our overall track record in India is getting worrisome.

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

An NGO on Friday demanded compensation for those who suffered injuries due to low cabin pressure in a Mumbai-Jaipur flight on Thursday, besides approaching the Sahar police station seeking an FIR against the five crew members.

Thank you for sharing, Rahul. I wonder if this NGO filed cases/FIRs against the frequent rail accidents we have which result in fatalities every other month literally. I wonder if this is for publicity.

[honeybee]

The issue here, as in the case of the XUV thread, is that people expect the airline in general and cabin crew in specific to be good at their jobs. At the end of the day, I as a paying customer who has abided by all the airline rules and regulations, have spent a good amount of time in travelling to the airport and then in the various queues, probably also paid exorbitant prices for food and also for ticket, do not expect such carelessness from either the cabin crew or the pilots or the maintenance staff.

For all the talk of the safety record and the rigorous procedures and checks, I don't want to suffer such agony for someone else's faults. And I don't particularly care about the nuances of what the pilots do and what the maintenance crew does.

Having said that, the recent instances, especially with Jet Airways do pose a question about its internal strength. Pilots not being paid for months, liquidity crunch would soon snowball into a direct impact on the morale of the staff, and such lapses seem to indicate a more serious issue with the airline.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

I came across the following news:

The airline offered complimentary domestic round-trip tickets and flying benefits to each of the 166 passengers on board Mumbai-Jaipur flight 9W 697. Several passengers had suffered bleeding from the ears and nose as the pilots reportedly forgot to switch on the system to maintain cabin pressure. In a personal email sent on September 27, the airline has apologised to the passengers about the incident.

The airline has offered a return Economy class ticket on its domestic network for a non-stop flight. Each passengers can redeem the offer for themselves or nominate a beneficiary for the same till March 31, 2019. Also, the airline has offered to credit 25,000 JP (Jet Privilege) Miles to their frequent flier account, that can help them buy certain flying benefits and privileges on the flight.

The airline’s move has, however, drawn the ire of some passengers instead of placating them.

The airline also informed the passengers that it had completed its internal inquiry into the incident and is extending support to the investigation by regulatory authorities. The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), which is investigating the incident, is expected to send a preliminary report on the cause of the incident to the Ministry of Civil Aviation soon.

The airline informed the passengers in its email that five cockpit members and aircraft maintenance engineers have been suspended.

https://revealyourtruth.com/cabin-pr...to-passengers/

[TKMCE]

Already the situation is bad and this is not going to help

https://indianexpress.com/article/in...fault-5384297/

[Jeroen]

Anybody care to comment on what not paying salary does to the mind set of cockpit and cabin crew? At best it is not helping I reckon.

Flying Jet Airways this Monday, Amsterdam to Delhi. I really should not have booked with them. In fact I booked KLM! But jet is their partner, so although you book KLM they stick you in a Jet plane.

Return Delhi Amsterdam "good old KLM plane and crew”

fingers crossed.

Jeroen

[KiloAlpha]

Here's another incident of cabin pressurization issues on a flight:
http://avherald.com/h?article=4be80dcd&opt=0

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Anybody care to comment on what not paying salary does to the mind set of cockpit and cabin crew? At best it is not helping I reckon.

Flying Jet Airways this Monday, Amsterdam to Delhi. I really should not have booked with them. In fact I booked KLM! But jet is their partner, so although you book KLM they stick you in a Jet plane.

Return Delhi Amsterdam "good old KLM plane and crew”

fingers crossed.

Jeroen

You may want to re-book onto LH or AF. Would have to change planes at CDG or FRA or MUC. I would do it if I were you. I never fly Jet - haven't for years. The airline maybe bankrupt. Its owner & founder is not. That is the charm of our industry starting with Dr V.

[shivasuma]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Anybody care to comment on what not paying salary does to the mind set of cockpit and cabin crew? At best it is not helping I reckon.

Flying Jet Airways this Monday, Amsterdam to Delhi. I really should not have booked with them. In fact I booked KLM! But jet is their partner, so although you book KLM they stick you in a Jet plane.

Return Delhi Amsterdam "good old KLM plane and crew”

fingers crossed.

Jeroen

I would say good luck to you. It was one of the worst flying experiences in my life. I was flying to Spain via Amsterdam and Jet was the partner airlines. Since I had booked "economy" we were made to wait for an hour before we got our meals. The passengers in the cabin in front (maybe premium economy) had finished their meals and fast asleep when we got ours. My daughter was hungry and I had asked them to get it quick but to no avail. They were very slow in the service and barely cared. I have decided not to fly Jet Airways ever again.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Anybody care to comment on what not paying salary does to the mind set of cockpit and cabin crew? At best it is not helping I reckon.
Flying Jet Airways this Monday, Amsterdam to Delhi. I really should not have booked with them. In fact I booked KLM! But jet is their partner, so although you book KLM they stick you in a Jet plane.
Return Delhi Amsterdam "good old KLM plane and crew”

It depends on the fare combination, Jet is mostly cheaper especially on Business Class. You can go online and do the change to KLM by paying difference or via your travel agent. Now coming to your question about the salary, I think, it should not matter when they are on Plane. With so many things to do, they will have to give 100 % though somewhere in their back of the mind, there will be stretch on what happens next.

KLM has brand new plane with wifi and flat seats on the Delhi-Amsterdam segment

Originally Posted by V.Narayan

You may want to re-book onto LH or AF. Would have to change planes at CDG or FRA or MUC. I would do it if I were you. I never fly Jet - haven't for years. The airline maybe bankrupt. Its owner & founder is not. That is the charm of our industry starting with Dr V.

I regularly fly Delhi-Toronto, though the planes are old and occasionally their seats will get struck when you try to make Bed (BTW, there is a small lever to reset under the seat) I find the width and overall ambience to my liking. Besides they are mostly 25-35 % cheaper over StarAlliance in Premier.

Originally Posted by shivasuma

we were made to wait for an hour before we got our meals. The passengers in the cabin in front (maybe premium economy) had finished their meals and fast asleep when we got ours.

Must be late night flight from Delhi, they are equally bad in Premier as well. I have seen such services with many other Asian airlines departing at this time, to be fair, not everyone likes to eat at those time as well.