[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by Hayek

But the attitude after the Lion Air crash beggars belief - it probably the most egregious case of corporate behaviour I have seen in my adult life - and I have seen a lot. It just demonstrates how low the value of the lives of people in emerging markets is in that Boeing got away being fined peanuts (USD 2.5 bn) for such blatantly criminal actions.

Totally agree. The entire approach was racist to say the least. It's very easy to blame dead third world pilots while patting one on the back saying, "this would never have happened in the US."

I partly blame the nutty Trump administration as well even though The Donald himself grounded the Max. That Elaine Chao was an unmitigated disaster in her role.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by Hayek

Ideally, several Boeing executives starting with the former CEO and the lead designers of this air craft should be spending the rest of their lives in jail.

Muilenburg did not get jail and he walks away with 28million! He had an expression that nothing could move him. Shows no remorse.

I wished the doco had interviewed more pilots who flew the 737 Max. Maybe none came forward. This was a plane in service from 2017 and the first crash reported in 2018. Didn't anyone experience any sort of hindrance from the poorly executed MCAS system in this time that it should have been called out?

The fact that Lion Air asked for additional pilot training and Boeing refuses to provide them that, was the point where you understand the Organizations priorities. I guess a small budget airline carrier versus a Corporate giant, its almost like, how dare you ask. You trust us or don't buy our planes.

[rkv_2401]

Weren't Boeing also at fault in the Lauda Airlines crash in 1991 after the thrust reverser deployed mid-air? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004

(Niki Lauda of F1 fame) "Lauda asked Boeing to fly the scenario in a simulator that used different data as compared to the one that Lauda had performed tests on at Gatwick Airport Boeing initially refused, but Lauda insisted, so Boeing granted permission. Lauda attempted the flight in the simulator 15 times, and in every instance he was unable to recover. He asked Boeing to issue a statement, but the legal department said it could not be issued because it would take three months to adjust the wording."

"Lauda asked for a press conference the following day, and told Boeing that if it was possible to recover, he would be willing to fly on a 767 with two pilots and have the thrust reverser deploy in air. Boeing told Lauda that it was not possible, so he asked Boeing to issue a statement saying that it would not be survivable, and Boeing issued it. Lauda then added, "this was the first time in eight months that it had been made clear that the manufacturer [Boeing] was at fault and not the operator of the aeroplane [or Pratt and Whitney].

[BoneCollector]

Originally Posted by RM Motorsports

This should be interesting for aviation fans.

Downfall: The Case Against Boeing

Originally Posted by Hayek

Just a brilliant documentary, and I found the callousness of the Boeing officials through this process disgusting.

A brilliant documentary indeed. Boeing officials were so callous in their attitude. I mean why would someone not let the pilots know of a system that works behind the scene, let alone tell them about how to recover from it? Boeing has blood of so many innocents in their hands. Any amount of compensation will not bring back people. Had Boeing been proactive and grounded all 737 MAXs after Lion Air crash, 155 people would have been saved. Instead, they started blaming the pilots.

[yashg]

Long before the Netflix documentary, I had read this article about the design flaws of the 737 max and the software based solution that was employed to counter it.

As someone who heads a tech team, I tell my developers, no matter how bad you screw up, your code will not end up killing people. But in the case of Boeing it did. Now, it's not as if there was a bug in the software that caused the crash per se. It was bad design and reliance on a single point of failure for a critical component of the system. But imagine the load on the conscience of the developers who wrote the code for the MCAS.

On another note, there is a real danger in the world being run by code. Code is never perfect. Writing 100% bug free code is near impossible. May be only the likes of NASA and ISRO can write the code to that level but it is super expensive and extremely slow. The developer has to think about and plan for all the possibilities and all the ways the code can break.

[SR-71]

Originally Posted by yashg

As someone who heads a tech team, I tell my developers, no matter how bad you screw up, your code will not end up killing people.

Same boat ! And my protégé chided me for that after the MAX issue was initially attributed to software malfunction.

Originally Posted by yashg

The developer has to think about and plan for all the possibilities and all the ways the code can break.

In this case I don't think the code bombed. It simply seemed to rely on data from faulty sensor (there was only one sensor instead of two that was originally planned for) and there was no bullet proof way to switch off the system though they claimed turning it off would allow the pilots to regain control.

The Netflix documentary shows how corporates have simply stopped admitting to their faults no matter how glaring it is. After the first crash they were quick to point fingers at the Lion Air pilot saying no American pilot had trouble piloting the plane. After the black box recovery they claimed the pilot did not do what was expected of him/her when the MCAS kicks in unwantedly. Only later did the investigators find evidence that the MCAS system details were never communicated to the pilots during delivery. Infact the pilots were unaware about it until after the Lion Air crash. Boeing seemed to continue with their 'non-american pilot not capable' charade even after the second crash with Ethiopian Airways. The CVR/Block Box data from Ethiopian Air confirmed the pilots were aware of the MCAS issue and turned off the switches thy were expected to turn off and yet couldn't gain control of the plane. This compounded by the fact that the jack screw was found in the position that would have forced the nose to pitch down fully is what stripped the trousers of those c-suits at Boeing.

Despite all of these they were focusing on employing lobbyists and save face than to admit to their mistakes and punish the guilty. The FAA is no saint either. It took 346 lives for Boeing and FAA to wake up. The first one can be categorized as accident, the second one no so much... Its said the airline industry is controlled by duopoly and this is exactly what happens. Unfortunately we are not going to see another manufacturer crop up anytime soon unless China decides they want in. And that thought doesn't do any good to my paranoia

[libranof1987]

Not sure what to make of this.

The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has barred 90 pilots of SpiceJet airline from operating Boeing 737 Max aircraft after finding they were not properly trained.

https://www.livemint.com/companies/n...818154260.html

Apparently because MCAS, the very system found responsible for the two crashes, was not functioning properly in the Simulator.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

Not sure what to make of this.

Agree, deeply puzzling. As far as I know, this refresher was in a Boeing simulator expressly focused on the 737 Max + unique MCAS procedure. How can it not be carried out to the DGCA's satisfaction for only 90/650 pilots? Someone really messed up!

https://www.deccanherald.com/busines...d-1100305.html

[srini1785]

Probably a consequence, I was on a Scheduled SpiceJet flight and yesterday I got an automated call saying that the flight has been rescheduled. Besides the MCAS fear the new schedule is not very convenient. I am thinking of changing airlines itself.

[BoneCollector]

As per this news, all B737 MAXs manufactured after 2019 need to undergo a retrofitting for some part supplied by Spirit AeroSystems in the fuselage. Each aircraft will take 24 hours for the retrofitting to be done.


737 Issues

[BoneCollector]

FAA issues another warning regarding the Boeing 737 MAX with a potential safety issue with its engines of CFM make.

In an announcement made on Tuesday, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has raised concerns about the possibility of overheating in specific components within the CFM Leap-1B engines that are used to propel 737 MAX aircraft.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...-11139841.html

[arijitkanrar]

Originally Posted by BoneCollector

FAA issues another warning regarding the Boeing 737 MAX with a potential safety issue with its engines of CFM make.



https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/bu...-11139841.html

The problem is with the anti-ice system.

Question out of curiosity and not specific to the Max, how much of the anti-ice systems on the aircraft are used in Indian airspaces generally?
I mean given our meterological conditions, how much anti-icing is generally required?

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by arijitkanrar

I mean given our meterological conditions, how much anti-icing is generally required?

Whilst the answer is of course, to do with altitude, I don't know at what height freezing begins. Our aeronautical folk can advise. Let me add the question as to whether this changes very much with ground-level temperatures, ie tropics compared to temperate?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by arijitkanrar

The problem is with the anti-ice system.

Question out of curiosity and not specific to the Max, how much of the anti-ice systems on the aircraft are used in Indian airspaces generally?
I mean given our meterological conditions, how much anti-icing is generally required?

We have some professional Indian pilots on the forum. But as a private pilot let me tell you, icing is always one of your big worries! At higher altitudes the environmental conditions at ground level are simply not relevant any more.

A nice summer rain in your garden, could be lethal at 150000 feet!

You can’t fly into or be anywhere near icing condition unless you have a fully approved and certified working de-icing system. If you don’t you will find yourself severely restricted in altitude and general directions.

Have a look at Wikipedia. Far from complete and perfect but it gives some idea on what pilots need to consider

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icing_conditions

Jeroen

[BoneCollector]

Boeing 737 MAXs suffer another issue which is related to its fuselage as per this link. This affects it's around 50 undelivered aircrafts with mis-drilled holes on some fuselage. This is actually crazy. I'm not an aviation expert but personally I feel that Boeing has shot itself in its leg with 737 MAX.