[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Customers are complaining about dents (!), scratches on the fuselage, cockpit window, dirt, loose items etc.

Metal shards all over, esp in the wiring harness.

Had not heard about that one yet.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/kolka...AS5962PGI.html

Regards
Sutripta

[Thad E Ginathom]

Yes, the fusilage-under-the-bridge story was covered, maybe in the accident thread. I commented about the typical lack of safety concern of the people watching the operation from on top of the bridge. It wouldn't take much to collapse a bridge when freeing a stuck vehicle.

It seems that they took the tyres off. It must have been well stuck for simply letting the air out not to have worked.

Dents and scratches in a brand-new Boeing? Good grief: worse than Maruti!

[Sutripta]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/max-cra...trending_now_5

(My immediate cynical reaction - but isn't a pilot necessary as a patsy)?

Regards
Sutripta

[BoneCollector]

Another potential issue has come out in open with some flaw in its wiring. MAX has some major issues now.

Max

[shortbread]

Ukranian 737 crashes, albeit details unclear.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-51029994

[mazda4life]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ing-180-tehran

the above link has a twitter video of the unfortunate crash.

[Jeroen]

Long time in the making, but here it is:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/07/b...-training.html

Boeing advises Simulator training on the Max. Very little I can find what that actually means. Both in terms of the actual training as to what it means to the simulators, which will all need upgrading and re certification to some extend.

Jeroen

[Jeroen]

Some more Boeing internal documents and emails showing up.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airfram...136078.article

It is obvious that this does not help Boeing at all. In fact it proves much of what has already come to light. On the other hand, it is also really difficult to put any real value to it. There is a difference between the receptionist writing an email to a colleague saying the plane is designed by clowns, and say, the chief test pilot sending the same message.

In such large companies you will always find these sort of mails, no matter what. More importantly is what kind of relevance can be attached to these various messages. Which means you need to know who wrote what to get some idea.

Jeroen

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Some more Boeing internal documents and emails showing up.

https://www.flightglobal.com/airfram...136078.article

It is obvious that this does not help Boeing at all. In fact it proves much of what has already come to light. On the other hand, it is also really difficult to put any real value to it. There is a difference between the receptionist writing an email to a colleague saying the plane is designed by clowns, and say, the chief test pilot sending the same message.

In such large companies you will always find these sort of mails, no matter what. More importantly is what kind of relevance can be attached to these various messages. Which means you need to know who wrote what to get some idea.

Jeroen

Well, I think I might have solved some of my own apprenhension on this. Just came across this, read and weep:

https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.c...6afcbbd61f.pdf

This is a.o. apparently, the chief test pilot being very uncomfortable about having to hold up some of the Boeing no SIM training requirements.

Jeroen

[fhdowntheline]

In my opinion, there should a federal moratorium on new product development by Boeing, if at all they can do that-ie, no new design to be certified by FAA until Boeing shapes up. And the Max program should be terminated forthwith. I dont think even airline crews would have any confidence to operate the type, much less passengers. Even if the MCAS 2 is fixed AND the wiring is sorted AND Boeing manages to re-train all pilots on existing Max planes, a single accident in the next 2 years will be the final nail in the coffin for the Max and maybe Boeing too. It depends on what future does Boeing want at this stage. Now is the time to roll back, pull up its sleeves and clean up itself up fundamentally. This will also make the other companies take notice and improve their own act.

[Hayek]

Frankly speaking, the problem seems to be with how people use email rather than anything else. In any product development process (or any other process, for that matter), different folks have very different views. Some of them express those views using strong language. It does not mean those views are gospel - at the end of the day, they are considered and either accepted or rejected. The problem with email being used as a means of communication is that what used to be expressed verbally now gets expressed in writing - and in a medium that is permanently searchable.

To my mind that's what has happened to Boeing. The former Chief Test pilot seems to have been one of those dudes who thinks that he is the only smart guy in the firm - and that everyone else is either an idiot or corrupt. He has also used the most impolitic language - locker room trash talk - while describing others in writing. I am sure he would not have ever used such language if he were sending a signed memo to someone. And now we will have the media jumping up and down and pretending that an entire organisation was corrupt because of some guys' stupid mails.

A simple rule of thumb I use while sending mails - treat it like a memo. You would never issue a memo to someone in an instant, so type your mail, save to drafts and come back and edit the same.

We have learnt nothing new from these sensational revelations - yes, Boeing screwed up, but we knew that when two planes crashed. Yes, Boeing tried as hard as it could to minimise training requirements when it introduced the Max, but that was part of the design brief. And yes, Boeing has a tough task of fixing the Max - while still keeping training needs to a reasonable level, and winning back public confidence. I do hope regulators don't overreact and end up crippling one of two players in a Duopoly. It's not that Airbus is pure as driven snow - but for the two Max crashes, people would have been a lot more focussed on Pratt & Whitney turbofans that keep catching fire.

[Sutripta]

Interesting to note that even after repeatedly saying that they are fully cooperating with the authorities with full openness and transparency, something new is found only after a change of guard at Boeing.

'Jedi mind tricks' seems to be a popular phrase at Boeing.

Regards
Sutripta

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by Hayek

Frankly speaking, the problem seems to be with how people use email rather than anything else. The problem with email being used as a means of communication is that what used to be expressed verbally now gets expressed in writing - and in a medium that is permanently searchable.

I think Boeing created that mess themselves. Given a choice most of us would try to keep it verbal or offline, but in a new virtual workplace with remote teams, sometimes email is the ONLY way of addressing a mass audience. And Boeing purposefully split the test pilot and engineering teams to two separate locations.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by Hayek

A simple rule of thumb I use while sending mails - treat it like a memo. You would never issue a memo to someone in an instant, so type your mail, save to drafts and come back and edit the same.

Reminds me of the Arthur Andersen / Enron saga :

https://money.cnn.com/2002/05/08/new...song/index.htm

Hotel Kenneth LAYA
(sung to the tune of Hotel California)

So I called up the partner
I said " Please book this entry"
He said," We haven't had a debit here since 1993"
And still the gurus are calling from far away
Worry worry in the middle of the night
Just to hear them say

Welcome to the
Hotel Mark-to-Market
such a lovely face
such a fragile place
They liven it' up at the Hotel Cram-it-DownYa

When the suits arrive bring your alibis
Mirrors on the 10K, makes it look real nice
And she said, "We only make disclosures here
of our own device"

And in the partners' chambers
Cooking up a new deal
Three percent in an S-P-E
but they just can't make it real

Last thing I remember I was running for the doors
I had to find the entries back
to the GAAP we had before
"Relax," said the client
"We are programmed to succeed
You can audit anytime you like
but we will never bleed."

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Hayek

A simple rule of thumb I use while sending mails - treat it like a memo. You would never issue a memo to someone in an instant, so type your mail, save to drafts and come back and edit the same.

Wise words. Agree 101%. Too many write emails as if it is a casual conversation at the coffee machine corner.