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Old 5th June 2020, 00:23   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
^^^
I was not really referring to smoke/ fire, but to the functionally detrimental effect of grease on brake discs. And esp. if it on one side only.

I doubt much grease made it onto the actual braking surface itself. With the landing gear retracted behind the engine nacelle anything coming down inside there is likely to fall vertically more than horizontally, so it is more likely to be on parts of the gear and the short sides of the discs.

When a plane lands and starts braking there is a very rapid build up of considerable heat in literally seconds. Discs, pads, but all other structural parts of the brake and gear system shoot up in temperature. Not sure if the F50 had carbon brakes already. Temperatures are even higher on those.

I really don't know what kind of inspection they carried out afterwards, but it must have been more than a the normal look over by maintenance.

Going by my own experience with car discs/pad/grease contamination I can report it is not a very happy combination. As you will have seen in my "fiddling" thread I am very liberal with the brake cleaner fluid when assembling brake systems.

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Old 5th June 2020, 17:00   #137
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
I doubt much grease made it onto the actual braking surface itself. With the landing gear retracted behind the engine nacelle anything coming down inside there is likely to fall vertically more than horizontally, so it is more likely to be on parts of the gear and the short sides of the discs.
So now we discount this
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Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
On these Fokkers with the high wing, sometimes grease and so falls on the landing gear / brake discs.
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Old 5th June 2020, 17:13   #138
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutripta View Post
So now we discount this
No, not necessarily. See my earlier reply. I think it is unlikely it ends up on the braking surface. Plenty of other exposed areas on a Brake Disc! Rim, hub, bolts etc.

Let me see if I can find a drawing or image of this landing gear.

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Old 5th June 2020, 17:26   #139
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
No, not necessarily. See my earlier reply. I think it is unlikely it ends up on the braking surface. Plenty of other exposed areas on a Brake Disc! Rim, hub, bolts etc.
Well, in cars rims, hubs and bolts are not normally called a brake disc.

Maybe aircraft nomenclature is different!

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Old 5th June 2020, 18:35   #140
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

I guess the members using PPRuNE must have already seen this but for the benefit of others:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/...arachi-51.html

Quote:
PK-8303 crash: Pilot violated instructions of ATC, says CAA report
Salah Uddin On Jun 2, 2020

KARACHI: The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) has released a report regarding ‘violations’ made by pilot of ill-fated PK-8303 aircraft of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) which was crashed on May 22, ARY News reported on Tuesday.

The Civil Aviation Authority’s Additional Director Operation sent a letter to the safety department of the national flag-carrier, Pakistan International Airlines (PIA). The copy of the letter was obtained by ARY News which stated that the pilot of the Airbus 320 aircraft did not follow the instruction of the air traffic controller (ATC).
Attached Thumbnails
Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead-pia_plane_crash_caa_report2_large__f767c0fdc3eba2a7f5d737ac6ee7a34565265df5.jpg  


Last edited by AlphaKilo : 5th June 2020 at 18:36.
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Old 6th June 2020, 00:04   #141
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

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Originally Posted by AlphaKilo View Post
I guess the members using PPRuNE must have already seen this but for the benefit of others:
I did not see much response to that post on PPRuNe. Other than a few “covering their asses” comments. Which is very likely true.

The discussion on PPRuNE has reached its usual low point. Initially lots of activity and soon some good experts and people with good, relevant insights join in.

After a while it all goes south with just endless “crap and opinions” being thrown about. Check the opinion on India aviation of some of the members in this very thread. They are referring to stuff that happened 10 years ago and are still extrapolating their view of India and Asia from that. Utterly pathetic.

Wait until some real new factual information emerges, because until it does, PPRuNE is just useless, an internet pit into which to many arm chair pilots and pilot wannabees pile endless amount of crap.

I find it more and more difficult to follow these threads on PPRuNE. There are some really good contributors and some genuine interested folks asking good questions. Especially when you visit the more detailled topics.

Especially, their threads on high profile aviation disasters leave a lot to be desired.

Better follow AH:

http://avherald.com/h?article=4d7a6e9a&opt=513

It is a far more factual based story and it is easy to see what has been updated. Finding anything inside a PRRuNE thread is like looking for the proverbial needle in the hay stack.

Just one (grumpy) man’s opinion!!

Wait for the first preliminary reports to be published and see what appears on the forums!

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Old 6th June 2020, 19:58   #142
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

I've never flown anything bigger than a 172 myself, in fact never been in the cockpit of a commercial airliner, so this may be a naive question, but I have to ask, how is it possible for a pilot to NOT realise that the plane is too high on approach once the runway is visual?
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Old 6th June 2020, 22:04   #143
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdus001 View Post
I've never flown anything bigger than a 172 myself, in fact never been in the cockpit of a commercial airliner, so this may be a naive question, but I have to ask, how is it possible for a pilot to NOT realise that the plane is too high on approach once the runway is visual?
Read my earlier posts. It is a well known phenomena. it has to do with getting with things like task saturation, tunnel vision, etc. A pilot can get so focussed on a particular task or situation he/she just doesn’t start noticing or even responding to alarms/bells/whistles.

It is not unique to aviation. Happens in all sort of situation where people need to multitask in a very challenging, high pressure, enverionment, where they get bombarded with lots of information. No excuse, but humans are not particularly good at it. Pilots are of course trained to cope with this. There is probably not a singly pilot out there who hasn’t been in a similar situation. You all do, at some point in time, you get behind the curve and it takes too long to realise what is happening.

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Old 7th June 2020, 12:06   #144
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

Airbus came out with a statement last week:

Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead-screenshot-20200607-8.30.42-am.png

Earlier the data from both the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder were retrieved succesfully. So all data is intact.

This statement also suggest that as least as Airbus is concerned there were no technical problems with the aircraft.

The preliminary report from the authorities is expected on 22nd of June

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Old 23rd June 2020, 20:38   #145
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

Not sure if that is an official report as I read somewhere that it will be presented on 24th to the media. But Pakistani forums are posting information that has 'leaked' and pointing to Pilot and ATC errors. Can just be rumour-mongering.

News link below :

https://www.khaleejtimes.com/world/p...n-error-report

Some points to be noted :

"According to the report, the CAA officials, the cockpit crew, the control tower and the air traffic control repeatedly made mistakes. Sources privy to the document said the aircraft's black box has so far not indicated the possibility of any technical fault."

"The plane stayed in the air for 17 minutes after the first landing attempt, a crucial time during which both the engines of the aircraft failed.

It said fragments of the PIA aircraft's engine stayed on the runway for 12 hours but the air site unit did not collect them and later other aircrafts were allowed to land on the runway. This was a violation of the standard operating procedure as it could case damaged to other aircrafts.
"

Last edited by NiInJa : 23rd June 2020 at 20:43. Reason: additions
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Old 23rd June 2020, 20:41   #146
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

A preliminary report blames the pilot as well as the ATC for the crash of PIA 8303. Apparently there is a leaked footage also of the attempted failed landing where the engines made contact with the runway.


Link
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Old 24th June 2020, 18:55   #147
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

This is ridiculous if true. The pilots were discussing Coronavirus during landing.

Link

I've attached the preliminary report in PDF format.

Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead-img20200624wa0028.jpg
This screenshot shows how the plane was dragging along the runway.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf AAIB-431.pdf (2.36 MB, 44 views)

Last edited by BoneCollector : 24th June 2020 at 19:24.
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Old 24th June 2020, 19:47   #148
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

Raises the question. Were they flying under the influence? - one or both. Let me pose the impolite question -- too much machismo?

Last edited by V.Narayan : 24th June 2020 at 19:52.
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Old 24th June 2020, 20:43   #149
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

The pic at post # 147 has a blue pen like object. Part of the ill-fated plane? The fact that they came in for normal landing on their first attempt indicates they were not in the know of landing gear not having retracted. If they had known, they would have prepared the aircraft for belly-landing which involves ( experts please correct me if I am wrong ) circling overhead while ground crew prepares mud on runway, dumping fuel and coming in light. Right? There is a clear difference in sound, vibration and feel between landing on wheels and landing on engine cowls. Wonder how they missed that. Even a first-time flier would know the difference. Once you land on cowls, there is no point trying to lift that plane up and attempt a go around. Cowl panels would have pushed inward and would have caused serious damage to engines. I'm not a pilot or into aviation so if my layman comments are incorrect, please pardon me.
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Old 24th June 2020, 21:00   #150
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Default Re: Pakistan International Airlines Airbus A320 crashes near Karachi; 97 dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Raises the question. Were they flying under the influence? - one or both. Let me pose the impolite question -- too much machismo?
On PPRUNE I have seen some comments around the fact that both crew members had been flying for the last seven days Also, the matter of whether they were fasting has not been addressed. But even so, they might have been on active roster for a considerable time, maybe made worse because of fasting. But still it makes you wonder.

The preliminary report does not add much information. Although it does raise some questions on the ATC - Tower - Communication.

Quote:
The “Aerodrome Control” observed the scrubbing of engines with the runway but did not covey this abnormality to the aircraft. It was conveyed to the “Karachi Approach” on telephone. Subsequently “Karachi Approach” also did not relay this abnormality to the aircraft.
You are witnessing a belly up landing and subsequent go around and you telephone approach? Those guys did not think it was worth mentioning it either?

Really?

We will have to wait the next report. It will show how many days active they pilots were, how much rest etc. Won’t say anything on the fasting though. I wonder if they do autopsy on the crew?

After all we have seen and appear to know, I am sure the voice recorder will tell the tale pretty much!

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