[balenoed_]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

The pic at post # 147 has a blue pen like object. Part of the ill-fated plane?

Oh that is a real pen placed while photographing to proportionately relate the size of the impact.

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by balenoed_

Oh that is a real pen placed while photographing to proportionately relate the size of the impact.

Oh, ok. Silly me!

[NiInJa]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears as if ATC had forgotten some basics (due to the long break of Covid ?). After reading the initial report, I feel they could have stopped the disaster even at the last moment. Is it a standard practice for the 'Aerodrome Control' to visually confirm if landing gear is down before issuing a clearance ?

"The 'Aerodrome Control' conveyed a landing
clearance of the aircraft (without observing the abnormality that the landing gears
were not extended) to “Karachi Approach”. Subsequently “Karachi Approach” cleared
the aircraft to land."

Just hope they get to the bottom of it and not leave it right there after putting blame on crew and other people involved.

[anandhsub]

Almost 1 in 3 pilots in Pakistan have fake licenses, aviation minister says

Link

Note

Khan did not clarify if the two pilots on flight PK 8303 held fake licenses.

[arijitkanrar]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears as if ATC had forgotten some basics (due to the long break of Covid ?). After reading the initial report, I feel they could have stopped the disaster even at the last moment. Is it a standard practice for the 'Aerodrome Control' to visually confirm if landing gear is down before issuing a clearance ?

"The 'Aerodrome Control' conveyed a landing
clearance of the aircraft (without observing the abnormality that the landing gears
were not extended) to “Karachi Approach”. Subsequently “Karachi Approach” cleared
the aircraft to land."

Just hope they get to the bottom of it and not leave it right there after putting blame on crew and other people involved.

I don't think Tower visually inspects every aircraft coming in for landing. As far as I know, if pilots have reason to believe that the landing gear might not be down and locked, they might ask the tower for a visual inspection in which case they do a flyby first so that the Tower can visually confirm.


Regarding the second part of the post I think Aerodrome Control here implies Tower.
Why would Tower clear the aircraft first and then Approach? Isn't it the other way around? Or am I missing something?

[Sutripta]

This is shocking, if true.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/b...hnk/index.html

Sutripta

[AlphaKilo]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/25/b...hnk/index.html

Sutripta

Well, it says pia has suspended all the pilots with fake licence. Does it have a list of pilots with fake licence like it is some additional endorsement so that they can identify fake licences straightaway? 😉

[Sutripta]

^^^
PIA knew. I have a feeling that in most of these cases 'fake' will mean certification lapsed, or flying hours fudged or required courses/ simulator hours not done but paperwork ticked off. Need to know more about 'fake'.

I don't know about the legal system in Pakistan, but admitting it so readily leaves them totally exposed in court.

Sutripta

[Jeroen]

Likewise, I am not so sure how we need to interpret the term fake?

Lets be clear, somebody with no knowledge of aviation can not fly a commercial airliner. Even a hobby pilot like myself would struggle in most cases. It is one thing to cruise, do a few simple manoeuvres. But a real flight?

Whichever way fake needs to be interpreted it is likely to mean that parts of their currency and or certification were not in order. Which is a very serious matter, no mistake.

I had a quick look in the ICAO database to get a view how Pakistan ranks:



Quite remarkable, but before drawing any conclusion some words of caution.
Just for context: ICAO is an international body (UN) overseeing aviation safety in member countries. It assesses the effectiveness and compliance of oversight individual aviation governmental agencies have on the aviation industry and player in their respective markets. (This was the agency that played a large role in the downgrading of India some 5 years ago)

The last full audit of Pakistan was 2011 and for India it takes into consideration the 2018 results (still an extension of the various recommendations from the earlier down grade)

I also checked some other ICAO documents: https://www.icao.int/safety/Document...8_30082018.pdf

One of their main programs is the implementation of the so called GASP (Global Aviation Safety Plan). It provides members with a frame work and standards on how to enhance overall aviation safety. Again, Pakistan did ok there (up to 2019).

So it does make you wonder what is going on?

Jeroen

[AlphaKilo]

@Sutripta, Jeroen: Some videos which I don't want to share here as their authenticity cannot be verified quote some insiders within their DGCA, Pakistan that fake licences include fudging the type rating hours, simulator hours and psychoanalysis outcomes.

Nevertheless, what data is used for the rankings? who provides them? does the UN body verify it? On one hand, having rules and regulations in place is different to it actually being implemented and being strictly followed. Like in some places in India, having too much regulations could also sometimes serve as a source of threatening to extract more money from prospective pilots to obtain clearances. I don't know what the ground reality is in Pakistan. I really don't know how the ground reality is in DGCA, India but that is not the topic of this thread so will keep it aside for now.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by AlphaKilo

Nevertheless, what data is used for the rankings? who provides them? does the UN body verify it? .

I am not exactly sure how this works in practice, but very broadly speaking I believe it is along the following lines.

When it comes to ICAO reporting, members provide their own data. Only when ICAO does a full audit does it get verified in minute detail.

When it comes to individaul countries there might be some differences depending on local regimes, laws etc.
I got my various pilot licensse and flow in the USA only (mostly) so I am only familiar how it is done there.

Pilots keep their own logbook into which they log all (at least) legally required flight details. Which means anything pertaining to currency. E.g. flight hours, night landings, VFR/IFR conditions, PIC, aircraft type/registration etc etc.

Flight training is overseen by a CFT, Certified Flight Instructor. Which means he/she is certified by the FAA and is authorised to give flight instruction to non qualified (student) pilots and is also authorised to sign of on certain things.

It is your CFI that decides and aphorises you to perform your first solo flight. It is the CFI who can authorise certain endorsements to you license (e.g. complex plane, high altitude etc)

Formal certification, e.g. obtaining your PPL, Multi Engine is always done via a theoretical part (by an FAA approved body) and practical part (flying) done be a FAA certified examinator.

Currency checks tend to be done in most cases by CFI’s. They will check your logbook to see whether you meet the minimal requirements and then they take you on your check ride, typically also including an oral part.

I think airlines, to a large extend have their own CFIs who perform the line, simulator and check rides of their crews. But those CFI’s would be FAA approved/certified. (And they are checked regularly by the FAA on their currency)

Airlines are likely to keep track of all the certification, currency levels of their pilots and keep details of their log book too. (These days a lot of that is of course all digital).

If for whatever reason you fail currency test and or requirements, in most cases you will need to re-take the respective test fully, which means an FAA examinator.

So very simply put: Currency is checked (mostly) through the means of CFI. Actual certification is checked (mostly) through FAA examinators.
Individual pilot is required to keep relevant flight details (although how he/she does it is not prescribed in detail at all!)

I am not sure how it works in India/Pakistan. Maybe V.Narayan has better, more insights into how it works in commercial aviation.

Jeroen

[hdus001]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

^^^
PIA knew. I have a feeling that in most of these cases 'fake' will mean certification lapsed, or flying hours fudged or required courses/ simulator hours not done but paperwork ticked off. Need to know more about 'fake'.

I don't know about the legal system in Pakistan, but admitting it so readily leaves them totally exposed in court.

According to this article, it could be worse than that!

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/new...lent-licenses/

"Out of 860 active-duty commercial pilots in Pakistan, 262 of them had paid someone to take the exam for them"

"Khan reported that there was widespread falsification of pilot experience as well, though one thing he’s reported to have told reporters is extremely problematic—that some of its “pilots” came to the job without flight experience, though we’re doubtful that could happen and suspect that he meant that the pilots in question didn’t have the requisite flight experience"

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by hdus001

Out of 860 active-duty commercial pilots in Pakistan, 262 of them had paid someone to take the exam for them"

It talks about the written exam. Pilot certification tend to comes in two parts. A written test and a practical test. Just like your driving test.

The written test, also known as the knowledge test, must be taken and passed before you can move on to take your practical test. Which tends to be known as the check ride where a certified examiner on behalf on the respective regulatory body takes you out for a check ride. It also often contains an oral part testing your theoretical knowledge and application of knowledge.

As with driver license, some struggle with the written knowledge test. From my own experience, I did two of these. First for my PPL (Private Pilot License) and once again for my IFR certification as well. Even as a private pilot it takes a lot of study, training, time and effort to acquire yourself with all the relevant theoretical knowledge.

Under the USA FAA the tests I took were multiple choice. I cant quite remember, but I think some 40 questions. Some pretty straight forward, some requiring a lot of thinking, calculations etc. All question were weighted equally as far as the end result and you needed 70% correct to pass. Which, personally, I thought was ridiculous. So we have pilots out there who felt it was ok to fly around knowing only about 2/3 of what you should know?

I guess it is still better than sending somebody to take the test for you!

At your check ride you show up with I.D. and your logbook. The examiner will check your I.D.. against your details in the FAA database. As I mentioned before, pilots are responsible, largely, for maintaining their own log books. So you can cheat.

Jeroen

Jeroen

[hdus001]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

As I mentioned before, pilots are responsible, largely, for maintaining their own log books. So you can cheat.

Yeah if one is so inclined, there's quite a few ways of cheating, unfortunately.

Here in Australia, during the PPL/CPL training, the logbook has to be certified periodically by an instructor/CFI who may or may not cross check against school records before certifying. However, this applies only if you do your flying with a school. When you fly outside a school environment (for eg I mostly fly a friend's plane or hire from a club) then you basically self-certify the logbook entries. This is easily manipulated.

I've heard from an instructor-friend how he once caught a student cheating - the student was meant to do a cross-country solo flight, which involves planning and navigating using paper charts to a remote airfield, but the student instead flew out to the training area and just flew around in that area for a whole hour (obviously wasn't confident enough to plan/navigate a cross country flight by themselves). Got caught out when the instructor also happened to go to the training area in another plane with a different student and saw this familiar looking aircraft Apparently several of the overseas students did that regularly!

[srini1785]

^^
Gist of last few posts :

For the flyer : Don't fly PIA.
For the designer : Maximize AI while flying.