[skanchan95]

No. 11 Squadron "Rhinos"- the IAF's second oldest transport squadron (No. 12 "Striking Yaks" are the oldest), to induct the Airbus C-295MW, at a ceremony at Hindan Air Base today.

No.11 Sqdn's machines over the years:
Douglas Dakota : 1951-1979
Avro HS 748: 1979-1996
Antonov An-32 : 1996-1999
Avro HS 748 : 2000-2023
Airbus C-295MW : 2023-

The 'One-horned Rhino' was chosen as the Squadron emblem when the Squadron moved to Jorhat in Feb 1961. The Squadron's motto was chosen as `Vishwambarah Prandah', meaning `Supporters of the Universe'.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by skanchan95

No. 11 Squadron "Rhinos"- the IAF's oldest transport squadron, to induct the Airbus C-295MW, at a ceremony at Hindan Air Base today.

No.11 Sqdn's machines over the years:
Douglas Dakota : 1951-1979
Avro HS 748: 1979-1996
Antonov An-32 : 1996-1999
Avro HS 748 : 2000-2023
Airbus C-295MW : 2023-
Attachment 2508066

So, the Avros will start getting retired this year? Or being shifted to another squadron?

Interesting to note that this squadron shifted from Avros to An-32s and then back to Avros.

[skanchan95]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

So, the Avros will start getting retired this year? Or being shifted to another squadron?

No. 11 will be the first, followed possibly by No. 41 and No. 59 squadrons( the other two active HS 748 squadrons).

These 56 C-295s are being touted as the replacement for the HS.748 and it is unlikely that the HS 748 will passed on to other squadrons and will just be scrapped. The HS.748 is currently in service with the following IAF squadrons/Flights

Squadrons:
No. 11 Sqdn "Rhinos"- Baroda
No. 41 Sqdn "Otters" - Delhi
No. 59 Sqdn "Hornbills" - Guwahati

Air HQ & Comms Sqdn - Delhi

Flights:
HQ Flight Central Air Command - Allahabad
HQ Flight Eastern Air Command - Shillong
HQ Flight Maintenance Command - Nagpur
HQ Flight Southern Air Command - Trivandrum
HQ Flight South Western Air Command - Baroda
HQ Flight Training Command - Bangalore
Navigator Training School- Hyderabad

DRDO - Bangalore (?)

Originally Posted by dragracer567

Interesting to note that this squadron shifted from Avros to An-32s and then back to Avros.

Yes, they were inactive for a year from 1999 to 2000 before re-equipping with the HS 748. Baroda is currently home to No. 25 Sqdn as well, operating An-32s.

[dragracer567]

Seems interesting. Wonder if they coordinate with Indian and/or Pakistani authorities for such flights. Such flights next to China or Russia gain more attention.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

Seems interesting. Wonder if they coordinate with Indian and/or Pakistani authorities for such flights. Such flights next to China or Russia gain more attention.

Attachment 2516224

Attachment 2516225

You know I saw this tweet during my lunch break and wondered whether it was worth asking on the forum if any of the others had noticed anything.

In all honesty, I'd say for the most part trying to parse the reason for the flight paths of sniffer aircraft is a bit like reading tea leaves, especially for those missions that have their transponder on right? I guess given the heightened tensions with the full scale flare up in Israel & Palestine, I think it's easy to get a bit antsy when you see a bird like this roaming near the subcontinent. I'd seen the immediate quote tweets linking it to some alleged mishap at a Pakistani nuclear facility. To show you how easy it is to spin up a tale based off this one tweet and a wider context:

If I were to put on my Tom Clancy hat for a minute it's easy to derive this mission being tasked to track the PAF wheeling up the component of their nuclear deterrent that's basically leased to the Saudis as a nuclear umbrella, as MBS fears the situation in the ME could cascade especially if Iran gets more actively involved. Boom, there you go - you've got a compelling hook for a fanciful plot built around the tracking of that jet.

NOTE: This is all total make belief, just to reiterate!

On a serious note, I do agree with you that the flight tracking of these very niche aircraft around Russian or Chinese airspace is far more noteworthy (granted those are probably the bread and butter flight plans for them - probably with the addition of North Korean airspace). I'm pretty sure both PAF and IAF personnel must've been well aware of that flight path. Very roughly it looks like it would've been at the edges of both countries airspace. I'm sure it's in everyone's interest to give heads up to all involved, no one wants any miscommunication leading to something unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by V.Narayan

Navy considering a second Vikrant class carrier

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...rier-more-mpa/

What I found interesting in this article was the DRDO render of the C-295 based reconnaissance variant.

It's the first I've seen in this use case. While it's only a render it does highlight the opportunities that were envisioned when the C-295 deal was announced (the article makes the same point). It's an interesting dilemma with the IN's want+need for more ISR platforms. They'd love to have more P-8I's, more UAVs, and more medium range platforms like the hypothesised C-295 variant. Sadly budget realities means it's going to involve compromises. It's hard to argue against a cheaper home brew version based off the C-295 (provided the development goes to plan, on time mostly, and budget) forming the bulk of the resources. It'll free up the more capable P-8I's for the missions where it's capabilities are much more necessary.

Just brainstorming, isn't there a C-295 variant with a forehead mounted refuelling boom (or is an Embraer I'm thinking of?)? How tricky would it be to add that? The proposed C-295 MRMR need not be a medium range ISR platform anymore in that case right? Obviously that's provided there's enough tanker assets, which there aren't. Unless you have a C-295 tanker variant, with underwing Cobham refuelling pods for hose and drogue refuelling... It's starting to sound like a C-295 based pyramid scheme now!

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

Attachment 2516932
What I found interesting in this article was the DRDO render of the C-295 based reconnaissance variant.

It's the first I've seen in this use case. While it's only a render it does highlight the opportunities that were envisioned when the C-295 deal was announced (the article makes the same point). It's an interesting dilemma with the IN's want+need for more ISR platforms. They'd love to have more P-8I's, more UAVs, and more medium range platforms like the hypothesised C-295 variant. Sadly budget realities means it's going to involve compromises. It's hard to argue against a cheaper home brew version based off the C-295 (provided the development goes to plan, on time mostly, and budget) forming the bulk of the resources. It'll free up the more capable P-8I's for the missions where it's capabilities are much more necessary.

Just brainstorming, isn't there a C-295 variant with a forehead mounted refuelling boom (or is an Embraer I'm thinking of?)? How tricky would it be to add that? The proposed C-295 MRMR need not be a medium range ISR platform anymore in that case right? Obviously that's provided there's enough tanker assets, which there aren't. Unless you have a C-295 tanker variant, with underwing Cobham refuelling pods for hose and drogue refuelling... It's starting to sound like a C-295 based pyramid scheme now!

Actually, India has always had a requirement for a small turboprop maritime patrol aircraft that would fit in between the petite Dorniers and the formidable P8s. Infact, India was about to release a tender IIRC in which a ATR-72 based aircraft was postulated. The conclusion of the C295 deal to assemble them in India seems to have changed that calculus since there is suddenly a locally made airframe available.

And yes, the C295 does come with a refueling boom (image below of it getting refueled by what seems like a KC-130) and can also function as a tanker through what seems like a jugaad solution of a refueling system emanating from the cargo hold with the cargo doors open (image also below). Seems a bit far-fetched to refuel fighter jets like this though, perhaps useful for helicopters or other C295s.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

Actually, India has always had a requirement for a small turboprop maritime patrol aircraft that would fit in between the petite Dorniers and the formidable P8s. Infact, India was about to release a tender IIRC in which a ATR-72 based aircraft was postulated. The conclusion of the C295 deal to assemble them in India seems to have changed that calculus since there is suddenly a locally made airframe available.

Ah thanks for this, wasn't aware of this proposal. Hard to argue the change of tack though once a domestically built C295 enters the picture though. Here's hoping something comes of it.

And yes, the C295 does come with a refueling boom (image below of it getting refueled by what seems like a KC-130) and can also function as a tanker through what seems like a jugaad solution of a refueling system emanating from the cargo hold with the cargo doors open (image also below).

Jugaad indeed. I guess the RORO kit is the absolute simplest way to do this without needing any modifications. I would've thought there'd be some kind of RORO in cabin tanks, coupled to Cobham pods mounted on underwing stations, from which you'd have the hose extend out.

Seems a bit far-fetched to refuel fighter jets like this though, perhaps useful for helicopters or other C295s.

Yeah my concern would be the airspeed difference between a C295 and any fast jet trying to refuel. Would the latter have to operate close to stall speed to match the C295?

Looking at that webpage you linked though, looks like Airbus have envisioned the C295 pretty much doing everything under the sun (which really taps back into the appeal of the Tata deal with the C295 in that it could truly end up underpinning a whole ecosystem of assets domestically license made if fully executed). The water bomber is an interesting one because the question arises: does India have any such large scale forest fire fighting assets like water bombers?

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

Yeah my concern would be the airspeed difference between a C295 and any fast jet trying to refuel. Would the latter have to operate close to stall speed to match the C295?

The stall speed for fighter jets is about 100 knots, far less than the maximum speed of the C295 (about 260 knots), so the issue is likely fuel tank capacity. One C295 could possibly refuel a single fighter jet once before returning to base - just not efficient. Also, unsure of any safety considerations given the RORO kits.

The water bomber is an interesting one because the question arises: does India have any such large scale forest fire fighting assets like water bombers?

Don't think so. Does India get forest fires at the scale we see in Australia, Southern Europe and North America? I have seen the IAF Mi-17s being used for such operations. We would probably fly in such assets from abroad when the need arises.

[SmartCat]

DRDO Airbus A319:



Source:

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

The stall speed for fighter jets is about 100 knots, far less than the maximum speed of the C295 (about 260 knots), so the issue is likely fuel tank capacity. One C295 could possibly refuel a single fighter jet once before returning to base - just not efficient. Also, unsure of any safety considerations given the RORO kits.

Didn't realise their refuelling capacity would be so low. Oh well, that still drives home the point that aerial tankers are so valuable for an entire modern air force. Making the C295 one might be a bridge too far, but having ASW or AWAC variants of it with a refuelling capability would be great for increasing time on station.

Don't think so. Does India get forest fires at the scale we see in Australia, Southern Europe and North America? I have seen the IAF Mi-17s being used for such operations. We would probably fly in such assets from abroad when the need arises.

I suppose you're right. I guess the underslung bucket from helicopters is about all the kit needed in country compared to such a specialist asset like a water bomber.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

DRDO Airbus A319:

It might be dull compared to the raw aluminium bodies of military aircraft of yesteryear but I still find it cool seeing your run of the mill civil airliner in grey military paint schemes.

[skanchan95]

Wreckage of IAF An-32 K2743 that went missing nearly seven and a half years ago found in the Bay of Bengal.






On 22 July 2016, the IAF Antonov An-32 tail no. K2743 of No. 33 Sqdn "Himalayan Geese" disappeared while flying over the Bay of Bengal. The aircraft was en route from Tambaram AFS, Chennai to Port Blair in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands. There were 29 people on board. Radar contact with the aircraft was lost at 9:12 am, 280 kms east of Chennai.

[dragracer567]

So, clubbing a bunch of developments together:

1) Mahindra & Embraer sign JV to supply the Embraer C390 Millenium transport aircraft

This is something we had discussed earlier, the Indian Air Force has a large requirement for medium-transport aircraft, with the AN-32s nearing the end of their service life. There are three main contenders for this:

1. Embraer C390
2. Lockheed Martin C130J Super Hercules
3. Airbus A400M

Now Embraer has signed an MOU with Mahindra to participate in this tender. If successful, Mahindra will follow Tata in being the second private player to assemble military aircraft in India.

I believe the Embraer is the front-runner given the cost, tech transfer & capability though the IAF already operates the C130J. Further India would probably trust its BRICS ally over its Quad ally but the C130J has more than proven itself, including in Indian services - landing in an austere fields along the LAC and even a daring rescue mission in Sudan - I wonder how the turbo-fan C390 can handle such missions. Lockheed would probably partner with Tata which already manufactures some parts for the C130J.

The A400M might be interesting if the IAF wants replacements for the IL-76 fleet which is nearing the end of its service life as well. Just hope that the IAF won't sit on this one for too long.



2) India to purchase 12 more indigenous Netra AWACs - 6 Mk1A and Mk2 each.

We already discussed earlier on India looking for used Embraer ERJ airframes for the Mk1A. Further, the Mk-2 based on the Airbus A321s is also coming to fruition, so the IAF will finally have a decent AWACS fleet. However, these are still not as capable as the Israeli Phalcon AWACS mounted on IL-76s with a coverage of 280 and 300 degrees respectively, and shorter detection ranges. The earlier plan to have an AWACS with 360-degree coverage with the radar mounted on A330 MRTTs seems to be on hold.



3) India to open tender for air-to-air refueling aircraft

This is an extremely long saga with the A330 MRTT having been chosen multiple times but has been rejected each time due to cost issues. The A330 MRTT has been proven to India over and over again in the form of exercises with other users of the aircraft such as the UAE Air Force, the Royal Australian Air Force and the French Air Force. Infact, A330s from these three forces frequently assist the IAF in long-range ferry flights as we discussed earlier.

Nevertheless, there finally seems to be light at the end of the tunnel with HAL teaming up with IAI (discussed earlier again) to refurbish used 767s and convert these into tankers as they did for Colombia.

Now, the article seems to indicate that 737s or A321s will be used which I highly doubt. It would most likely be the 767s. However, Airbus could also participate with used A330s which can be converted into MRTTs like the Australians have done - I guess because the A330 is no longer in production and it might take time to certify the new A330 NEO into an MRTT.

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Originally Posted by dragracer567

So, clubbing a bunch of developments together:

1) Mahindra & Embraer sign JV to supply the Embraer C390 Millenium transport aircraft

Interesting. I mean what with the recent confusion over the drone deal and skepticism wrt US defence ties being stoked up yet again, seems as opportune a time as any for the Brazilians to come into the picture and make their pitch. I know such a deal likely has months of lead in time but you can't help but feel it's opportune. While I think staying simple with the C-130 for the medium lift tender is best in terms of simplicity and performance (reliability and capability), I understand that the events of recent weeks have stirred the same old suspicions regarding US products once more.

Adding Embraer to the mix adds an interesting angle when it comes to bolstering ties not just in BRICS but more the Global South - if you can get good scale deals going for indigenously derived products that don't fall foul of the usual NATO block, Sino-sphere or Russian origin defence markets. The performance of the C-390 in rough fields is a valid one, I'd also query what extent of components in it is at risk of sanctions hold ups say by the US in a worst case scenario? From what I recall the engines are an A320 engine derivative, so it's likely then that parts should exist in a large ecosystem.

The A400M might be interesting if the IAF wants replacements for the IL-76 fleet which is nearing the end of its service life as well. Just hope that the IAF won't sit on this one for too long.

The A400M is this weird size in between a C-130 and a C-17. It sure would make a good replacement for the Il-76 but my worry is that it'll be too expensive right out the gate to even make it past the procurement desk. Also weren't there availability issues with the A400M? So much so they included it in one of the Mission Impossible movies to counter the overwhelmingly sour narrative about it at the time (this was speculation of course).

On a slight tangent, if we're talking about aircraft in the A400M or Il-76's payload class, one entrant that just doesn't seem to get any traction is the Kawasaki C-2, the airlifter variant on the same platform as their P-1 maritime patrol aircraft. I find it intriguing how both those platforms have had zero interest outside Japan. Wonder what the reasons are?

2) India to purchase 12 more indigenous Netra AWACs - 6 Mk1A and Mk2 each.

What's the hold up then with acquiring the used Embraer airframes? Surely this one is a relatively easy one to get through the door - it's not a big ticket cost item. It's a known quantity.

3) India to open tender for air-to-air refueling aircraft

Gotta feel for the A330MRTT - if someone at Airbus had a sense of humour they'd nickname the Indian variant Sisyphus and keep entering it into this tender ad infinitum as it keeps doing the rounds between the different depts in India.

Didn't Boeing block IAI from being allowed to retrofit used airframes into converted aerial tankers? I thought that's what they did to strong arm the Israelis into plumping for the useless KC-46 when they'd have been able to get retrofitted 767s.

Now, the article seems to indicate that 737s or A321s will be used which I highly doubt. It would most likely be the 767s. However, Airbus could also participate with used A330s which can be converted into MRTTs like the Australians have done - I guess because the A330 is no longer in production and it might take time to certify the new A330 NEO into an MRTT.

Why is it that no ones had a go at working up the 737 NG or A320 airframes into tankers? There's going to be loads of decent condition used airframes for those lying about, there'd be a robust spares support network. Would the capacity be too low to be meaningful? Because you could almost argue then that hypothetically were the IAF to procure the C-390, it too could be purchased in its tanker guise as well - that sure would simplify the logistics chain.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by ads11

While I think staying simple with the C-130 for the medium lift tender is best in terms of simplicity and performance (reliability and capability), I understand that the events of recent weeks have stirred the same old suspicions regarding US products once more.

I agree with this and I do think that we would eventually end up buying more C130Js as well. The C130J is a proven platform in Indian service and plays a crucial role for logistics in mountain warfare & rapid deployment of special forces. All this will depend on how the relations pan out.

The performance of the C-390 in rough fields is a valid one, I'd also query what extent of components in it is at risk of sanctions hold ups say by the US in a worst case scenario? From what I recall the engines are an A320 engine derivative, so it's likely then that parts should exist in a large ecosystem.

There are bigger worries than just the components in a sanctions scenario, we've purchased much more American systems than European ones in the past decade and the other competing aircraft is literally from an American OEM. About the engine, I recall some discussion on X (formerly Twitter) that there are still major differences with the A320 CEO engines - didn't really understand this, someone with more knowledge on these matters could comment on this.

The A400M is this weird size in between a C-130 and a C-17. It sure would make a good replacement for the Il-76 but my worry is that it'll be too expensive right out the gate to even make it past the procurement desk. Also weren't there availability issues with the A400M?

The A400M is fairly successful now but the cost factor is always a persistent bother especially if we want local assembly for large numbers. Another option is to make Boeing restart the C17 production line (as stated in the article in the post below), however, there would have to be sufficient units to justify restarting the whole supply chain which would be impossibly expensive and would require finding more buyers such as perhaps the Saudis and maybe more Europeans (or NATO). The A400M would be cheaper and developing countries like Indonesia and Malaysia have purchased some but in very small numbers.

Originally Posted by dragracer567

In this interesting article about how many countries are still approaching Boeing to restart the C17 production line (bet India is among them),

On a slight tangent, if we're talking about aircraft in the A400M or Il-76's payload class, one entrant that just doesn't seem to get any traction is the Kawasaki C-2, the airlifter variant on the same platform as their P-1 maritime patrol aircraft. I find it intriguing how both those platforms have had zero interest outside Japan. Wonder what the reasons are?

The main reason is probably zero marketing, it seems like the Japanese just aren't interested in selling arms abroad even though their constitution allows it now. The death of Abe San has really tempered a lot of Japan's newly found strategic ambitions.

What's the hold up then with acquiring the used Embraer airframes? Surely this one is a relatively easy one to get through the door - it's not a big ticket cost item. It's a known quantity.

I guess it still has to go into tender, I'm not sure if these can be purchased directly (high chance of corruption).

Didn't Boeing block IAI from being allowed to retrofit used airframes into converted aerial tankers? I thought that's what they did to strong arm the Israelis into plumping for the useless KC-46 when they'd have been able to get retrofitted 767s.

I guess the block was just for supplying the IDF, typical American tactic, holding the aid money as hostage to ensure that the aid dollars go to American defence contractors (great way of funding your military-industrial complex, same with Ukraine aid that flows back to the complex). IAI is still supplying converted 767s to other countries such as the example sold to Colombia.

Why is it that no ones had a go at working up the 737 NG or A320 airframes into tankers? There's going to be loads of decent condition used airframes for those lying about, there'd be a robust spares support network. Would the capacity be too low to be meaningful? Because you could almost argue then that hypothetically were the IAF to procure the C-390, it too could be purchased in its tanker guise as well - that sure would simplify the logistics chain.

Depends, the A310 was converted to MRTT standard by the Germans and they are more or less a similar size. I guess there hasn't been a need for refueling jets of this capacity to be converted. The C390 has the capability but unsure if it's actually used by any country. The only popular small-capacity refueler is the KC-130J but they meet a unique requirement of the US Marines to refuel helicopters - only relevant for expeditionary militaries.