[kaak009]

Esteemed members,

Please do note I do not support violence of any sorts. But in my 2 cents the problem was due to 2 reasons

1. Inability of Ministry of Civil Aviation to get all 4 runways at IGIA certified for operations to go smoothly. It is not that this is the first time Delhi or north India has seen fog or insane cold. This happens every year and shows the inability and lack of responsibility from the ministry and the men incharge

2. This is the bigger fish to fry imho. INDIGO. They for the past 2 years have slipped so low in the scale of customer satisfaction that comparing them to Ryan Air is a shame for Ryan Air. Just look at those damned seats! Should be termed as ‘Pathar’ XL when booking that outrageously priced 1st row seat. There has been an ongoing lack of sensitisation from Indigo crews side and that shows! I on my last Indigo flight personally had to walk down the aisle just to get water despite 4 of my call requests being unanswered. I don’t necessarily blame passengers as well I cant imagine how it is to be in that cylindrical tube for more than 13 hours! Not saying the slap was deserved but I personally wouldn’t have minded screaming without any doubt

[sgmuser]

Imagine the passenger has a health condition like BP or Hypertension. You kept him for 12-13 hours without giving any idea what's happening and then you show up giving a hoot to the mental agony he has gone through but you expect him to be Buddha? Where's the customer service, where is the common sense? I don't have any mercy for that one staff who was very rude according to the first person evidence. He was blaming the passengers it seems. It just takes one second for someone to loose their balance especially with medical conditions. I'm in no way supporting this style of response but I presume after the Twitter post I read from that Russian lady, the passenger was provoked. I too get intimidated especially when the fault wasn't yours, I too get carried away sometimes. It's an art to keep calm and get over these kinds of situation. Sometimes I feel airlines staff think they are above and beyond law and they can do anything they want. They need to be clearly communicated it's not one way all the time.

[McLaren Rulez]

There's two parts here:

1. Indigo messed up big time. And they thoroughly deserve the brickbats they're getting.
2. However, if you assault a pilot or cabin crew or gate agent or indeed any other human being because of perceived incompetence, that is a very poor reflection of your intelligence. Taking your frustration out physically on the frontline employees of an organization is unacceptable, no matter what.

I hope the pilot presses charges and gives the yellow hoodie guy a free trip to the local jail.

[Fuldagap]

Back in Jan 2014 I was to board a flight from Pune to Delhi, 2230 Hrs. It was delayed by more than an hour due to some weather conditions. The flight finally took off after 2330 Hrs. After around 2 hours we reached Delhi but the aircraft was not allowed to land due to fog. It kept circling for dont know how long and finally landed in Jaipur.

After a wait of quite some time we were told that all passengers would have to make arrangements of their own from Jaipur to Delhi. People were so weary, hungry and uncertain that everyone just wanted to get out of the closed aircraft as soon as possible. It was night time and absolutely no one was feeling normal.

I dont remember whether it was a GoAir or Indigo flight but it was one of them.

Waiting even further and to everyone's dismay it was announced that the aircraft was not allowed the security clearance to deboard the passengers and the flight took off after some time and landed at Mumbai airport at 0430 Hrs. Female passengers, children and older people had a really hard time coping up with the pressure, more so because of the January cold.

It was claustrophobic to the core as per some co passengers when the aircraft was stationary for long at Jaipur.

Passions ran high after passengers got to Mumbai airport only to further find that no staff from the said airlines were to be seen or in the vicinity.

I got along with a few co passengers and somehow managed to find a manager and finally a GM. It was quite a scene. Except one lady manager of some sort, the other staff had their noses perched high up and were absolutely indifferent to the plight of the passengers. There was no professional way of conduct, not to mention any sort of of helpful information as to what the passengers were supposed to do.

The arguments were getting heated as time was passing. The GM made a ruckus making it look like that I had touched his blazer and tried to pass it on as physical assault. 4 CISF personnel came and tried to make me exit the airport. However, had some decent fellow Delhi guys who made sure that we stood our ground and made even the CISF guys back off.

All passengers had begun seating and resting here and there while a group of 6 of us tried to talk to the GM and his team for a quick resolution.

There was no solution at all by them though. At around 0600 Hrs they announced that all passengers would be boarded in subsequent flights as per vacancies in respective flights and old age people would be given priority. People were so weary that almost everyone had accepted their fates and let the airlines' staff have their way with whatever solution was proposed.

I had had an emergency at Delhi and was supposed to reach there the previous night itself but was not able to. So I made sure that I was given priority in getting as early a flight as possible. I was allotted a 0730 Hrs flight somehow.

The ordeal does not end here as was supposed to. I was waiting near the boarding gate for my flight with the new boarding pass. I saw a queue gathering up for boarding and I boarded that flight. I did not see or think that it was different flight of the same airlines. I was not supposed to board it. Everyone of the airlines' staff saw my boarding pass and let me board the flight that i was not supposed to.

Once inside the aircraft I got a feeling I am not in the correct aircraft and so i went to the airhostess to check my boarding pass once again. She was shocked to see that I was in the wrong aircraft and asked me how had I been able to enter it.

On my way out of the aircraft I made sure each staff who was supposed to check my boarding pass knew that they had not checked it properly. They all seemed shocked.

I was shocked to see the lethargy, the lack of professionalism and the attitude of each staff. I made a mistake boarding the wrong aircraft but nobody else noticed that too.

Finally I boarded my supposed flight after a further delay of 1 more hour. Reached Delhi at after 1000 Hrs.

I kept in touch with some other fellow passengers for a day or two and many had kept waiting at Mumbai airport till the evening. Some were told to come back the next day at Mumbai airport if they wanted to board a flight to Delhi. Some were shifted to some cheap hotels. Old age people and children suffered the most. No refund, no apologies, no courtesy whatsoever from the Airlines. They kept behaving like kings and blatantly told passengers that they could complain wherever they wanted.

All the while, the staff was least concerned about passengers suffering. They were totally indifferent.

Luckily no violence took place as most passengers were mostly cordial in conduct. But as they say up north 'jiski lathi uski bhains' (Might is right), had I not barged into the so called office of the GM personally and forced them into allotting me a boarding pass, I would not have gotten a 0730 Hrs flight, I would have too been a victim of the staffs' unruly way of conducting the scene and would have reached Delhi by evening or the next day only.

Mr Kataria was not supposed to hit the pilot. It was totally wrong. But some people lose their calm, it is just a matter of time.
Delhi people hit and say sorry later. That is normal there.

[MinivanDriver]

I am jotting down few points that the pilot / airline / AIr traffic control folks in the forum can correct / clarify.

1. In general visibility is good enough for an airplane to land does NOT mean that an airplane can take off in the same visibilty. In a CAT III C (full auto coupled autoland ) equipped runway if the airplane and pilots are both certified for it (pilots must be current in their training) and all onboard equipment required must be operational at the time( dual Flight Management Systems, Dual Autopilots, Dual radio altimeters, dual inertial navigation, air data and GPS systems etc as required), the airplane can land in very poor visibility. Someone was asking why one airplane landed and the other was diverted under the same conditions. It may well have been one of the many factors quoted above - pilot, equipment etc. Then for an airplane to take off, in general, I understand that the visibility must be greater that the minimums required for an auto land. The ATC would like / need to see the taxiways and runways from the tower for safe handling of taxi and take off clearences (my understanding - please correct if a pilot or ATC professional is in the forum). If what I am saying here is right, then it is very well possible that incoming aircraft are able to land but take off clearence is not given.
   
2. In such situations, the onboard crew- pilots / flight attendents are fully reliant on the Airline Operations Center (AOC - in this case Indigo's AOC) for any updates. So the onboard crew most likely did not have anything to do with the poor communication regarding the delay.

Now imagine it from the perspective of the pilots, they have a very demanding job to do under challenging weather. Remember they are doing a very safety critical job flying the airplane after all these delays whereas the passengers are resting in their seats.

Messed up situations like these happen in all airports be it London, Newyork etc.

Now fair points that need improvements are:

1. Once boarded and waiting in the airplane beyond a certain time frame (may be 4 hours), what should be the operational procedure for the relief of the passengers? This should be laid out by DGCA / civil aviation ministry.
2. Airlines must be monitored for the readiness of the pilots and aircraft equipment for CAT III C Autoland. They should not be in a situation where they cannot land due to deferred maintenace on onboard equipment.
3. All runways in fog affetced airports should be equipped with Instrument Landing System equipment capable of providing CAT III C autoland guidance.
4. Adequate crew rest guidelines. Someone made a comment about the pilots boarding just before take off. Again as per my understanding, the time a pilot is on duty starts when he / she boards the airplane. Let us say the pilot boarded initially itself and is sitting in the plane for the delayed hours. In that case, his allowed continuous duty time may get timed out and legally, they are supposed to be relieved by another set of pilots.
5. Hence whatever passengers do to vent their frustration, please do not direct it at the onboard crew, especially the pilots! Remember your life is in his hands.

Having said all these, I remember a situation from several years ago. Forgot if it was 2015 or thereabouts or even before that. There was a volcano eruption in Iceland and all flights in and out of Europe were delayed due to that. I was traveling to the US from India and connection was at London. So we boarded the British Airways Boeing 747. The captain announced there will be delays and they are uncertain how much. The pushback from gate was delayed by an hour or so. Then it would taxi a bit and wait, then again the same and it continues. Now net delay is over 2 hours. Then the captain announced that he has been asked to park and shut off the engines which he did.

After about 45 minutes, he announced that there is a problem starting the No.3 engine and mechanics are checking it. He even got the passenges engaged by jovially requesting them to stand up and look and confirm when the engine finally got running. All through this, it was old school British hospitality at its finest.

The captain made several announcements asking the passengers to visit the galley and help themselves to whatever beverages they want. We took off and reached with a delay of more than 5 hours.

Now British Airways at that time was a very good full service airline. They had more than adequate supplies and staff on board to keep the passengers well served. It was built in to their business model and operations. Now is it fair to expect that from a low cost carrier? Is it viable for them to even try to offer that? I guess not.

[itwasntme]

The MoCA provided a brief explanation on the CAT IIIB & IIIC issue:

It would be prudent to know about the 3 dependent factors for CAT III Landings viz. Runway Capability, Aircraft Capability and Pilot Accreditation. And thus, CAT III operations are decided by the Highest Common Factor among the three variables. The two CAT III runways at Delhi Airport are equipped for aircraft to land with minimum visibility of up to 50 meters. However, the majority of the aircraft fleet in India viz. Airbus 320 (75 mtrs) and Boeing 737 Max (175 mtrs) have visibility minima greater than the runway threshold. Thus, even if the runway is capable and sufficiently trained CAT III pilots are made available, these aircraft are not designed for Zero Visibility operations.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...481714935.html

[Drlmtukkar]

Can you even imagine being seated in a aircraft for more than 12 hrs with Zero progress. The poor guy must have gone crazy waiting n waiting n waiting …….. while the crew were new and fresh the poor people seated in the flight had been through more then enough torture. They should have been disembarked after 2-3 hours of waiting. There must be a rule made that no passenger would be waiting in a flight for more than 2 or 3 hours. I strongly believe that this guy must have totally lost it after 12-13hours of confinement.
As far as Indigo Airlines goes - I’ve had a nightmare experience with them. They fleeced us royally on our trip to the Andamans and would strongly recommend one and all to avoid travelling to Andamans during December. I think its the mode of operation of all the hotels , travel agencies and airline’s flying to Andamans in December to systematically fleece unsuspecting customers.

[thanixravindran]

Originally Posted by itwasntme

The MoCA provided a brief explanation on the CAT IIIB & IIIC issue:

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india...481714935.html

Doesn't airlines have to file winter schedule and DGCA approves it? Can this be not taken into account by better planning and approval system? Even a child knows trains run late and flight delays are common during winter season. We simply can't run 24 X 7 flights during winter in North and just make passengers at the receiving end.

[anjan_c2007]

The news just pouring in for the two day flight nightmares that the passengers underwent through to simply reach Goa from Delhi:-

Video of passengers eating on the tarmac at Mumbai Airport | A total of Rs 90 Lakhs fine imposed on MIAL - Rs 60 lakhs by Bureau of Civil Aviation Security (BCAS) and Rs 30 lakhs by DGCA.

IndiGo penalised with a fine of Rs 1.20 crore.

The link:-

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/17476...CrcIwAJpQ&s=19

The question is that are these fines to be paid by the MIAL and IndiGo going to the government exchequer unquestionably? The poor passengers have suffered, undergoing harrowing times with nightmares. And who is going to compensate them?

[SR-71]

There is a nice article in 'The Print' articulating the root of the problem quiet decently

All the 600 delays and 76 cancellations on Sunday had this in common—too many questions and not enough answers.

https://theprint.in/opinion/pov/airl...ngers/1927893/

[Fuldagap]

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2Gza2IoNaj/

Some lady posted this on Instagram. 13 hours is a long long time. Apparently, asking questions is not tolerated anywhere nowadays. The passengers were clearly at fault. And Kataria ji nailed the coffin.

[fhdowntheline]

These are the typical growth pangs that I had alluded to in an earlier post. Indian aviation is growing at a breakneck pace with new airports, airplanes etc. Everyone is suddenly behaving as if aviation never existed 2 years ago. Is the DGCA even staffed to handle the regulatory aspects ? Is AAI/Private operators staffed to handle this ? (Staffed= well trained, not a messenger of information). Is the flight crew well trained to handle unforseen circumstances ? Apparently not, given the screaming that the flight attendant did in response to the assault towards the pilot. If this is the demeanour, what will they do during in flight emergencies ? So unless everyone takes a few steps back, pauses and recalibrates their march, I foresee more of this happening for the next few years.

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by Fuldagap

https://www.instagram.com/p/C2Gza2IoNaj/

Some lady posted this on Instagram. 13 hours is a long long time. Apparently, asking questions is not tolerated anywhere nowadays. The passengers were clearly at fault. And Kataria ji nailed the coffin.

To be politically correct most writers on this thread are not in favour of that slap on pilotji's cheeks. Allow me to say this - I am glad Kataria ji landed a solid thump on that arrogant, condescending and I dare say stupid pilot. Kataria has done us all a favour. Metaphorically that was a slap on the face of Indigo's senior management who IMHO display the same attributes that the pilot did.

As @fhdowntheline correctly states this all boils down training, rehearsals and providing the resources to the hapless ground crew who face the justifiable ire of the passengers. The middle finger attitude of the cabin crew towards the passengers stuck inside the aircraft for hours is the deterioration at Indigo after Rakesh Gangwal and Aditya Ghosh exited following disagreements with Rahul Bhatia.

I am beginning to seriously doubt the ability of Indigo's cabin crew to organize an evacuation from an aircraft in an emergency. If they don't have the common sense to serve snacks and water to passengers stranded for hours in the aircraft I doubt they have the training to actually handle an evacuation Japan Air Lines style.

Pity Kataria could not manage a second slap!!

[V.Narayan]

Originally Posted by DroopyGarfield

I have a question since I have seen a surge in such negative news for the last few weeks - what is forcing customers to report so many anomalies in public domain suddenly?

1. Did AAI/DIAL miss the usual maintenance window for CAT III equipped runway and it threw everything into a mess for Indigo/Air India et al for flights originating in Delhi? Implication - it is a temporary glitch and things would return to normalcy soon.

Poor planning mainly on part of GMR & DGCA and a general lack of understanding that an airport exists first for the passengers and cargo movers rather than the Owners, the Airlines and the VIPs.

2. Did Indigo really throw out all caution out of window and went for penny pinching in all critical operational areas facing customers?
Implication - this decay in standards is permanent and cultural rot is here to stay.

This is only my personal opinion based on my observations as an industry ex-insider that the training standards at Indigo have been in gradual decline over the past 4 to 5 years after leaders like Gangwal and Ghosh left. Of course they can course correct if the management will is there. A lot of this starts with the attitude and values at the very top.

3. What is the reason AI/Vistara/SpiceJet delays are not making the news so frequently? Nowadays, I am reading 1 celeb post per day criticizing Indigo flights and wondering if Indigo are really beyond redemption?

Depending on the sector Indigo handles 50% to 70% of the traffic. It follows that they will be making a similar proportion of errors and facing similar face time on social media.

Implication - is this something that AI/Vistara/other airline customers are not facing when planning for critical flights for important events.

They are in as much of a soup. Vistara handles it better because their ground crew and cabin crew are empowered to think and act. Spicejet must be a lot lot lot worse. Air India is as inept as Indigo in handling these situations or planning for them.

You also seem to imply your loyalty shift to Vistara/AI, wanted to understand if this decay in standards is permanent.

I travel, on work, about 4 to 6 sectors a month. That is a lot at my age. For Jan & Feb at least I have booked only Air India or Vistara. Let's see how that goes. I may have to eat humble pie and allow Indigo into the tent. Some sectors to Tier II cities, in my case Raipur, Ranchi, Nagpur, do not have great connections outside Indigo.

Indigo deserves praise for having built such an extensive network and running a professionally managed operation with good standards of integrity unlike Spicejet or Go Air which ran like 'lala' companies with weak standards and compliance and Kingfisher and Jet Airways that were melting pots for dishonest conduct at senior levels. Indigo to their credit has the best engineering standards in the industry a spot they share with Vistara. With their large and well crafted aircraft orders they put Indian aviation on the map. Indigo's main problem is that success and size has gone to their head. Plus, there has been a noticeable shift in the tone of their training on how to deal with passengers and what place a passenger's goodwill has in their system. You see it on every flight in the way the check-in counter staff yells, the way the cabin crew snaps if you ask for water, the way the slowest check-in staff member is placed on the fast forward counter etc.

I am watching for the day Vistara is subsumed into Air India. We could lose Vistara without seeing any upward shift in Air India.

[fhdowntheline]

The devil lies in the details. Look at DIAL's response to the runway availability issue.

https://www.businesstoday.in/india/s...671-2024-01-17

I have never heard of a situation in other countries (glad to be corrected) where airport operations were disrupted significantly during a diplomatic event. And why are crucial airport infrastructure activities not exempted from GRAP regulations ? There are many things to introspect and act on. Handing out emergency SOPs is not the only answer.

Further look at this:

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/...026710685.html

In the peak of winter/travel season, when your largest airport is traditionally constrained for weather, your second largest airport is asked to hold operations just to provide some thrills to onlookers and raise some emotional fervour. Is this a practical idea at all in a fast developing nation ?