[Fuldagap]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

It is more important than ever that people get on with the business of the country and avoid all occasions that impede it. This is what will make us a true developed nation.

Atleast somebody said it. Couldn't be farther from the truth. As per my experience as we start going South, the unnecessary fervour which we have in the North about the uniforms, starts diminishing.

In the north if an army (or any other service) truck with personnel is passing by a rural area, small children would start saluting and feeling elated about it. The last guy sitting in the truck would always make sure not to disappoint the children and would return back the salute in his own manner. 'Fauji bye' they would happily shout.

Haven't seen such a thing in southern areas or even Maharashtra/Gujarat.
The culture decides what is given importance. Nobody is right or wrong here. Areas around Delhi are culturally inclined towards govt services or military. It is but natural that inclination is there towards such celebrations. I strongly agree with your point and we need specially the youth to focus more towards business/education oriented activities. Anything that impedes such activites should be given less preference.

Truth be said, people like to 'celebrate' patriotic events, almost nobody wants their children sacrifice their education and life to a govt service. I can say with conviction, govt business, including the services for security, needs to be robust in all aspects but lesser it is celebrated the better it becomes.

Mods please delete my reply if deemed irrelevant to the topic.

[nstark13]

I don't speak in the favor of the airlines or the accused here but everyone who's saying violence is not the answer, try sitting in a closed space for more than 8 hours and you'll realise what anguish and helplessness feels like. The occupants only had one point of contact, the crew, and even they gave half s-assed answers with no real solution. Violence was not the answer, it was a reaction and a very good one.

People were screaming to drink some water, eat something and the crew was as useful as Diesel is in a Petrol car. I'll rephrase again, imagine you buying the usual Sunday morning breakfast from the nearby shop, the guy takes money for it but then makes you wait for more than 8 hours and still gives you stale food. That's how real the experience was.

Everyone wants to be a keyboard warrior and give out gyaan, but nobody wants to understand the real scenario. One simple solution could have been that if the people were waiting for around 3 hours then let them return to the terminal even if it meant doing the security check again. Indigo should've realised by then that the wait times were going to be longer. Do you really need fricking 8 hours in bone chilling winter to realise people need food and water to survive. What a joke!

[fhdowntheline]

Originally Posted by nstark13

. Indigo should've realised by then that the wait times were going to be longer. Do you really need fricking 8 hours in bone chilling winter to realise people need food and water to survive. What a joke!

As I said, they are all behaving as if aviation was born a year ago with 500 airplanes and 100 airports. It is also important that Government does not allow the sector to be a duopoly, and must encourage and facilitate newer players. Also there is the question of too much too soon. Airlines are planning to add one airplane per week practically. Are they capable of handling this capacity growth particularly in human aspects ? Because that is where they are all severely lacking. Do we even have so much "airspace" available for traffic keeping aside the restricted airspace areas? Is the government using any kind of modeling/forecasting of traffic growth based on these factors?

[wbd8779]

Originally Posted by nstark13

I don't speak in the favor of the airlines or the accused here but everyone who's saying violence is not the answer, try sitting in a closed space for more than 8 hours and you'll realise what anguish and helplessness feels like. The occupants only had one point of contact, the crew, and even they gave half s-assed answers with no real solution. Violence was not the answer, it was a reaction and a very good one.

People were screaming to drink some water, eat something and the crew was as useful as Diesel is in a Petrol car. I'll rephrase again, imagine you buying the usual Sunday morning breakfast from the nearby shop, the guy takes money for it but then makes you wait for more than 8 hours and still gives you stale food. That's how real the experience was.

Everyone wants to be a keyboard warrior and give out gyaan, but nobody wants to understand the real scenario. One simple solution could have been that if the people were waiting for around 3 hours then let them return to the terminal even if it meant doing the security check again. Indigo should've realised by then that the wait times were going to be longer. Do you really need fricking 8 hours in bone chilling winter to realise people need food and water to survive. What a joke!

NO one was on the plane for 8 hours - I would request the posters to get the information verified before venting

Please go through the initial posts which lists out the chronology. On the other hand , I have had the misfortune of taking over 100 Indigo flights in the past year (work related 6-8 flights per month minimum ) - and I would unequivocally state that indigo has gone to the dogs , the work ethic's and service of Gangwal/ Ghosh years are long gone and have been replaced with smug attitude that says "take it or leave it ".

[V.Narayan]

Allow me to shed what little light I can. Some of this may inadvertently be a repetition of other posts, if so do forgive me.

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

It is also important that Government does not allow the sector to be a duopoly, and must encourage and facilitate newer players.

This the Govt has consistently failed at. In the 1990s and 2000s it was if I dare say, if the Moderators permit me, due to open book corruption. In more recent years the corruption at the top has disappeared and replaced by incompetence at the ministerial level with Civil Aviation being the dumping ground for all sorts of left over politicos. Also, everything is dumped on DGCA which is designed to be an air safety regulator not a business regulator.

Also there is the question of too much too soon. Airlines are planning to add one airplane per week practically. Are they capable of handling this capacity growth particularly in human aspects ? Because that is where they are all severely lacking.

This is driven by demand and supply. Thanks to this growth we can now buy a ticket at the nth hour and fly. This is a massive change from the PSU days. Growth is good and still short of where it needs to be. Flying is now being done by a socio-economic layer that never thought of flying as an alternative. This is a very important sign of progress. To their credit Indigo & Air India have planned their growth and respective supply chains. But we should still expect shortages of experienced pilots and engineers. This is a growth driven phenomena experienced even in USA, the mother of aviation. Not good but true.

Do we even have so much "airspace" available for traffic keeping aside the restricted airspace areas?

We have enough airspace. We need to make it mandatory that our heavy routes (BOM-DEL-BLR-HYD-MDS) be flown by wide bodies to reduce the landing-takeoff congestion at DEL, BOM, BLR. We need more narrow body and regional aircraft flights into Tier 3 and Tier 4 towns. An air connection is a stimulus for business to a Tier 4 town much the same way a road connection brings the world to a village.

Is the government using any kind of modeling/forecasting of traffic growth based on these factors?

Yes they are. Very much so. That is how the Udaan scheme came about.

Originally Posted by nstark13

I don't speak in the favor of the airlines or the accused here but everyone who's saying violence is not the answer, try sitting in a closed space for more than 8 hours and you'll realise what anguish and helplessness feels like. The occupants only had one point of contact, the crew, and even they gave half s-assed answers with no real solution. Violence was not the answer, it was a reaction and a very good one.

Thank you for saying it. In my past I have employed pilots and cabin crew on a mid-sized business and on a scale of 1 to 10 on lack of empathy that pilot ranked 9.9 on 10. In times of stress we default to our level of training. That he defaulted down to this level reflects both the training he received and the attitude of his senior management that was in his mental muscle memory. If he were a pilot in my employ I would be concerned about his ability to handle a tough situation on the flight deck.

One simple solution could have been that if the people were waiting for around 3 hours then let them return to the terminal even if it meant doing the security check again. Indigo should've realised by then that the wait times were going to be longer. Do you really need fricking 8 hours in bone chilling winter to realise people need food and water to survive. What a joke!

Here the problem is not with the airline but with our hide bound and IMHO not so competent BCAS {Bureau of Civil Aviation Security}. In my time BCAS made DGCA seem like a professional well oiled machine, that is how poor they are. They set the rules on security and do not allow for de-boarding back into the terminal because they don't have the space. BCAS, DGCA, MoCA, the Airport owners work in silos, they don't talk enough with each other and that is why this issue of a security sanitized area for de-boarded pax doesn't exist at Indian airports even though this point has been tabled a dozen times. So as has been written in this thread earlier by some the airline wants to keep the pax on board and hold the aircraft's place in the take-off queue. Where some airlines have faltered is in not providing training or empowering to their cabin and flight crew of what to do with the 180 head of cattle they are carrying if they are stuck for a few hours.

In the PSU days Indian Airlines carried food & water for every pax and some extra. So, if stuck they could at least serve one full meal plus something. Indian Airlines was not counting every kilo of weight on board.* Today the likes of Indigo carry limited snack and water compared to the 180 pax all as a part of the low cost carrier disguise. So even if they want to {which also they were confused about} the cabin crew do not have snacks for everyone. I doubt they have enough water to serve even 200ml of water in their small paper cups to all 180 over the course of the 8 hours. Nor did their logistics have the sense to send a truck to load up more - but that may have been a problem with the aircraft queued up. Mr. Rahul Bhatia who has been conspicuous by his absence may wish to dwell on this.

* 5 less 2-litre bottles = 10 kilos. 180 seats x 750 grammes of less seat cushion = 135 kilos.....and so on. That is how the thought goes.

[alpha1]

I see same the response worded differently:

Originally Posted by Akshay1234

Im sorry, but this is completely wrong. There has to be civility, no matter what. The employees generally who bare the brunt have no direct connection to delays, etc. But this is in general a mentality we see in India, whether the person has paid 10rs or lacs. Inflated feelings of entitlement.

Originally Posted by Raghuwire

Coming to the fourth point on crew behaviour, I have put up my views as a user of their services. As a user I am entitled to my opinion, which I have put up. It's not about ego and a customer facing job, Try explaining this to a person manning the gate and being paid a paltey 15 to 20k. Most of the people we speak to, don't have any hand in decision making, other than filling our egos, we are not solving anything by scolding them.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

That sort of mindset is the problem, no or little respect for the people who are doing menial jobs.

Whatever the situation, there is no reason to speak abusive words or show disrespect. We should never justify such behaviour.

By purchasing any services, we don't become the owner of that person or establishment. It's a contract between two parties and both parties have to be respectful. At no point in time does buying an air ticket or any other service give you a right to abuse or speak bad language.

Ignoring what happens in the real world and living in ivory towers are we?
Precise reason why I said, "If one has king-sized ego, he has no job being present in a customer facing profile."

Pilots are not meant to be customer facing, and this incident just proves that they shouldn't even try (unless they have a personal flair). They don't have the humbleness, the skills and the experience of managing a bunch of unhappy, weary, irritated, frustrated, angry human beings.

Of course, it is all well (for the airlines) if the customers tuck their tails and sit meekly for hours without any relief, but most likely that is not going to happen. That is why organizations need to have people who know how to address these situations, instead of blaming the situation itself or the people (customers).

So the moment you let the guard down and start interacting nicely, there will be a few who will jump and harass you!

In any case the above statement is absolutely the worst possible advice in such scenarios. As I said earlier and I repeat here:

You are actually advocating a dog-eat-dog attitude ("if I show my aggression and wear a sour face, the irate customers will not DARE bother me"). If this is the reality of airlines staff, then I sincerely support the customers who go no holds barred to the ground staff as well as the high and mighty pilots wearing such an attitude. Tit for Tat.

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Ignoring what happens in the real world and living in ivory towers are we?

I don't want to be rude to a fellow member, but what gives people the right to say anything just because we paid for the services?

Anyway, this is a topic that I don't think one can change others' views, but if someone shows empathy for another worker, it does not mean he is an escapist.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by alpha1

I
Pilots are not meant to be customer facing, and this incident just proves that they shouldn't even try (unless they have a personal flair). They don't have the humbleness, the skills and the experience of managing a bunch of unhappy, weary, irritated, frustrated, angry human beings.

I don’t know about Indigo or other Indian airlines. But I can guarantee you that all major western airlines do train all their pilots on how to interact with their customers/passengers.

There is an interesting discovery documentary about new British Airline pilots. You see them during all phases of their training. They also learn how to address the passengers on the PA system, how to meet and greet and how to deal with unruly passengers. They put a lot of emphasis on what is expected from the cockpit crew to make passengers feel comfortable, how to communicate, how to update them etc etc.

I must admit having flown an awful lot in India on all Indian carriers I doubt any Indian airliner gives much thought about this aspect of cabin training. To be honest, most cabin crew aren’t really all that great at it either. Years ago I wrote about my experience when we faced a cabin pressure loss. Most pethatic performance I had the misfortune to witness ever.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

I don't want to be rude to a fellow member, but what gives people the right to say anything just because we paid for the services?

Anyway, this is a topic that I don't think one can change others' views, but if someone shows empathy for another worker, it does not mean he is an escapist.

Amen to that!

Jeroen

[vharihar]

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/op...-12126901.html

Good article, elaborating what I've been trying to say here.