Team-BHP - Intercity Buses operated by various private travels and STUs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapezio (Post 1881061)

I am tired of some arguments.

1. Naturally AL earned a reputation for being innovative in these areas.
2. Tata has similarly tried many ideas in North India.
3. For example Tata had a rear engine bus prototype running from 1980s! How many knows this? Their first rear engine bus from Tata was in the beginning of 90s and due to zero local demand was consigned solely to export markets. It looks exactly like the old Tata 1510 but the engine is at the rear.
4. Did you know that it offered 160 hp at that time?
5. Somehow there are many who think that Tata made their rear engine buses in flat six months! I wish those automotive pundits good luck!
Both AL and Tata have tried their best within their respective limitations.

1. Its true that during the initial 2 decads of its operations, AL did not concentrate much on North & East for mass sales. But AL earned reputation for its innovative products all over india and not south or west!

2. What idea had Tata tried in North? (AL did not launch vehicles with air brakes, power steering etc only for south or west!)
Pls note that in Kerala, people prefer AL buses in highrange areas. Whereas in case of trucks, Tata 1210 was the most prefered. If Tata could not climb hills, how this happened!

3. AFAIK The first rear engine bus from Tata was in later part of 90's. The first commercially launched rear engine bus was in 1997-1998 - the LPO1615RE. There was demand for rear engined buses locally even when AL launched "Panther" in 1993.
And if you have any pictures or more info about your said export model Tata rear engined bus...pls share!

4. Before the JV of Tata-Cummins, Tata had only one model with engine power nearly 150HP, i.e. Tata LPS1616 Tractor.

5. If tata had rear engined buses from 80's as you said, then why we had to wait till 1998 to see LPO1615RE?

And its a fact beyond doubt that AL was leader in Indian CV industry in terms of technology at least upto 2000. After which Tata has also made very significant steps in this regard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transsenger (Post 1882940)

2. ... Pls note that in Kerala, people prefer AL buses in highrange areas. Whereas in case of trucks, Tata 1210 was the most prefered. If Tata could not climb hills, how this happened!

I didnt understand. Not sure what you are saying here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transsenger (Post 1882940)

3. AFAIK The first rear engine bus from Tata was in later part of 90's. The first commercially launched rear engine bus was in 1997-1998 - the LPO1615RE. ...

I worked for Tata Motors in Pune bween 1991 and 1993. All employees used to commute to the Pune works by company buses, which was a huge fleet. There were 2-3 rear engined Tata buses in this fleet. Occasionally, perhaps 6-7 times in my 2 year stay at Telco, one of the rear engined buses would come to ferry us to office. These were Ruby built coaches. I remember the ride was very smooth and very little engine noise inside the bus. The buses also had a longer overall length and had a longer front overhang than the regular buses then.

The point is, I can vouch for the fact that there were a few rear engined Tata buses as far ago as 1991. Of course, they (Tata's rear engined buses) were known to be unreliable. We would occasionally hear that the scheduled rear engine bus for that day has broken down, and some other bus would come to pick us up.

Also, I admit, during that time, I had never seen a Tata (neither AL, for that matter) rear engine bus other than my sightings stated above.

Thanx
/Venkat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transsenger (Post 1882940)

2. What idea had Tata tried in North? (AL did not launch vehicles with air brakes, power steering etc only for south or west!)
They had offered some of their rear engine buses to be used by TNSTC/KSRTC etc for a limited period on trial basis. The Sitibus (recently even an iBus prototype for a brief period) was given like that. Its an easy way to test and understand from real world conditions. In such cases they obviously provided these vehicles to operators close to their facilities.

Pls note that in Kerala, people prefer AL buses in highrange areas. Whereas in case of trucks, Tata 1210 was the most prefered. If Tata could not climb hills, how this happened!
Thats precisely I am saying dear! Such claims does not make sense.

3. AFAIK The first rear engine bus from Tata was in later part of 90's. The first commercially launched rear engine bus was in 1997-1998 - the LPO1615RE. There was demand for rear engined buses locally even when AL launched "Panther" in 1993.
And if you have any pictures or more info about your said export model Tata rear engined bus...pls share!

I do have pictures but I do not have rights on those pictures to share. vharihar's description is very accurate. They had rear engined buses and it was exported.

4. Before the JV of Tata-Cummins, Tata had only one model with engine power nearly 150HP, i.e. Tata LPS1616 Tractor.

I do not know about the source of the engine on that model. I presume its the same engine.

5. If Tata had rear engined buses from 80's as you said, then why we had to wait till 1998 to see LPO1615RE?

:) Somebody from Tata should answer it. But to say that they did not have technology is wrong. One simple reason could be the poor market conditions. Even today if JNNURM did not materialize it would have been a very different story as far as 'hi-tech' city buses are concerned.

This is not to offend any AL fans here. AL is trying hard too. But it does not mean that everybody else are useless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transsenger (Post 1882940)

Whereas in case of trucks, Tata 1210 was the most prefered. If Tata could not climb hills, how this happened!

AL was preferred over TATAs in highrange because Al's were easier to maintain and had longer life even after reboring / complete overhaul.

TATA1210 were preferred in highrange areas mainly for working in wooden mills, were TATA's had the ability of 'jump start' when stuck in slush/mud.

TATA's have just about managed to catch up with AL in highrange areas now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapezio (Post 1883662)

This is not to offend any AL fans here. AL is trying hard too. But it does not mean that everybody else are useless.

Trepezio!
I have never said others, for that matter, Tata is useless. My point is clear; as far as innovation and technology is concerned its was AL who lead the industry untill the end of 90's. As we all know, there was only Tata & AL as major players. When we say AL was technologically ahead, it is based on the number of innovative / technology advanced products introduced in the market. We do not consider those concept models or prototypes in their respective R&D centers. Both companies do test variety of models in their locallity. But for us, untill those are commericially produced, its of no use.
Just consider HCV segment in the period from 1955 to 1995:
AL - Air brakes, power steering, A/c buses, rear engine bus, tipper, multiaxle truck, models with hub reduction, turbocharger...etc
Tata - dual air over hydarulic brakes, exhaust brake...???
Hence i said AL was the leader and it dosen't mean that others are Zero! Tata concentrated more on numbers rather than variety of models for different applications, during that period. But after 1998, Tata has become equally competitive.

And may be some of you had chance to experience that Tata RE bus, but again i dont think it was launched commercially in india.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transsenger (Post 1884540)

"Past performance is not an indicator of future". Let us forget 1955-1995 and ask the question, who is better today?. Who is more technologically advanced? Who got more products? Who exports more? What will be the future lineup? In every aspect Tata outscores AL today, Things could be different in the future. Those who adapt with times will succeed. The private operators in highrange, who are 100% ALs, now started to use TMs. Defenitely TM is doing some thing right, otherwise they cannot be worlds second largest bus maker and 4th largest CV maker.
If you still think, AL is bette now, because it was better 10 years back, what can i say......

Quote:

Originally Posted by teamveevee (Post 1884610)

Who is more technologically advanced? Who got more products? Who exports more? What will be the future lineup? In every aspect Tata outscores AL today, Things could be different in the future. Those who adapt with times will succeed.

Wrt technology I can never say that Tata has more I can only say they have more JV's and nothing more.

Tata motors are definetely more smarter and more closer to people to positioning products and they got succeeded in this.
There are many success stories like Ace, 407, 2515.
By virtue of pure business point of view they are more stronger and by rightly positioning products they were selling in good numbers. I am quite sure that their products are neither superior not inferior but just meeting the requirements. The fact that is told that after 2000 their growth rate is faster is mainly because their learning curve was getting steeper with the lessons learnt from passenger cars. The reason why I compared passenger cars is unlike the CV indusrty the decision making must be razor sharp and lighting speed in order to survive in the industry.
Result, the buy out of Daewoo's Commercial Vehicle arm - To strengthen their R&D, development of trucks for Global market, Prima - To move global, launch of Ace - to target the lower end of CV segment.
I feel even we need not go back till 2000, come 2005 they were trailing behind AL in bus segment (considering their fully forward design) and now they are giving a good fight back with good tie ups with Marcopolo and with Hispano(though the later is yet to formatise). and Yes, they are growing and the reason for that I have cited above.
Come to Ashok Leyland, I could say their products are really rugged,tough and reliable compared to TML. (Critics are always welcome and I am ready to debate even further)
but at the end of the day if you could see in numbers I can tell AL is really lagging. Poor Pricing Strategy(as ALL products are dearer by 8~10% compared to TML), lack of Product strategy(more options to choose from like 1613 with SFC cowl, NC cowl etc like TML) , reduced product segmentation( only from 9T-(more specific only from 16T) to 49T GVW) or a cummulative of all the above. What ever it is ALL with its proven product line up should be more smarter and faster which its not having right now.
These are purely my views and not contradicting any one's plz.