[navin]

Originally Posted by blackfire_9

Below is the link for any body who is interested in reading about my journey for ICE

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sound-...et-1k-40k.html

blackfire, I think you have posted that link before. So lets put this to rest na.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Was very satisfied by the delivery schedule and packaging when delivering in dehradun.

I don't care how they have treated other people.They have treated me very well always even though i'm not friends with them or gotten a million rupee install from them.


+1 to Driven!

Navpreet, I really wish all installs went as smoothly as yours. I am very, very glad that you had a great experience as have many others. And you are right. if an installer has treated you well, you should recommend them.

Obviously for blackfire, GT500 and a few others were not so lucky but that story has been told and I'm really wishing that this thread move on.

[tsk13]

I forgot to share a courteous experience with them, it would've been a grave error if God wouldn't have reminded me of mentioning this.

The Illusion Crossover developed some snag and the Mid-Bass wasn't working. Went to Driven to get it checked, the Installer took out the cross-over and started searching for the error. It was found that one of the part was missing, which had broken off. The installer searched the area where XO was mounted, found that part and soldered it back, further strengthening the repair by using Epoxy. I don't remember how much I paid, but it was well within affordable terms (at par with Lajpat) plus I doubt if Lajpat guys use Epoxy Gun.

I prefer to visit Driven during Afternoon on weekdays since they're free that time. I've got my Sub-box from them, which Mr. Rana cross-checked with Drawings supplied by JBL before selling it to me. In short, I've faced few moments of dismay with them but the good and courteous ones overshadow them for me. Maglev and I always head to Driven now if we've any ICE related work and recommend the same to others. I've had tryst with Lajpat and KB and comparing Driven to them, the latter surely has an edge over them.

[S.I.N.G.H]

accoring to my experience, mr. rana is a very understanding person. at many occasions, i have accompanied many of my friends some of them being bhpians. on every occasion, i have observed one thing, mr. rana never misguides people, be it a small ice setup or an expensive/high end one.

everyone's perception is different. and i respect it. its just that if people tag driven as 'expensive', i am sure they get 'quality' work there. and i am sure they know their work very well. i would recommend driven.

[blackfire_9]

Originally Posted by navin

blackfire, I think you have posted that link before. So lets put this to rest na.

Sir, I hadn't posted the link earlier & hence thought of putting it here thinking it would be better instead of writing the experience (fear of long post; haha). However, in case I might have forgotten having shared the link earlier & consequently missed it, I apologize.

Drive safe.

[montyguru]

hi,

just saw this thread. it's indeed a very bad experience you've had Gt500 and blackfire. i'm sure this has been taken up at driven by senior gurus.

there are a lot of folks out here who have knowledge, enthusiasm and can be of great help in installs...if any newbie just connects up or informs beforehand, it would be easier for fellow t-bhpians to share knowledge at hand and avoid goof ups.

i'll initiate a handy list and try to ensure that installs for the community happen in good presence...can easily recall at least 4-5 good souls from here itself who wouldn't mind helping out fellow t-bhpians.

@m4ugr - JBL kit was never 4g. in fact i think it's a 8 or 10g.

Monty, I have edited your post. A handy list of good installs (of members) would be great but this should not be limited just to one dealer/installer. A general purpose list for all installers would be more suitable.

Why should a member have to need the help of a fellow member with any particular installer. Installers should be helpful to members regardless na?

Besides we have a forum for all TBHPians where all members are welcome to ask for help.

[montyguru]

Originally Posted by montyguru

Monty, I have edited your post. A handy list of good installs (of members) would be great but this should not be limited just to one dealer/installer. A general purpose list for all installers would be more suitable.

Why should a member have to need the help of a fellow member with any particular installer. Installers should be helpful to members regardless na?

Besides we have a forum for all TBHPians where all members are welcome to ask for help.

agree 100%. this list need not be limited to driven, there is no reason also as most t-bhpians have no commercial involvement and they would be more than willing to help regardless of where a person wants to go for install.

the idea is - we know, most car dealers are 'sales guys'. they have limited knowledge, and we can't compare ranaji as a manager to you, LBM, B&T or any other gurus.

on this thread itself, even bydesign had a bad experience, which could have very well been avoided, had he just asked what wires to use (with ltd budget), how to go about his setup etc... obviously, ranaji didn't help him out, he doesn't inform about Finolex, i don't recommend it either, but people here use it and are happy with it. in fact i think even Sam recommends it.

so you can put up a different thread for it - members who wish to be available across cities can put their names. in fact even we can even have a directory of members with details of their installs and their willingness to share a demo - a newbie can get a better idea listening to setups, and wouldn't mind sharing a tandoori chicken for all the experience he gets.

all this goes in making a well-informed decision. and the main reason this is required is that while all people can view threads, they cannot get membership and i've had loads of people wanting to become members n put up their threads, that's how i guide them - it's a pool of talent, any query i get, i ask them to put it up here - but nobody's getting accepted, they can't put up queries.

[navin]

Originally Posted by montyguru

the idea is - we know, most car dealers are 'sales guys'. they have limited knowledge, and we can't compare ranaji as a manager to you, LBM, B&T or any other gurus.

so you can put up a different thread for it - members who wish to be available across cities can put their names. in fact even we can even have a directory of members with details of their installs and their willingness to share a demo - a newbie can get a better idea listening to setups, and wouldn't mind sharing a tandoori chicken for all the experience he gets.

Let me think about this for a while.

A good place to start would be the Sound off - Show off section. Many members have posted their installs on that section. If members from the same city can contact these members it would be a great place to educate one's ears.

I should/would expect installers to know as much if not more than Sam, LBM Gunbir, B&T and other Gurus. Are not LBM, B&T, Gunbir etc (everyone but Sam) also installers? Yet I would also hope that all customers do their homework as it makes the job of installers so much easier and also ensures there is better clarity on what to expect.

BTW I am aware that some members confuse me to be a Guru. I am a Moderator. Not a Guru. Because of this confusion I have conciously decided not to post my installs on TBHP.

The brands I use are varied and I often change components just so I can listen to them. Like all of us I have my personal preferences (and have on occasion even modified components to suit this preference) but enough about me. TBHP is about you guys.

The most obvious advice would be to listen.

[montyguru]

Originally Posted by navin

I should/would expect installers to know as much if not more than Sam, LBM Gunbir, B&T and other Gurus. Are not LBM, B&T, Gunbir etc (everyone but Sam) also installers? Yet I would also hope that all customers do their homework as it makes the job of installers so much easier and also ensures there is better clarity on what to expect.

i'll tell you a personal experience. i had once tuned a car and asked gunbir to have a dekko. so he comes, as usual, sets everything flat and to zero. now as we start, without even looking at the amp, he said - "you've set the gains high". i said "yes". so gunbir says "you've set them very high". and again i said "yes". so he asked WHY? i said, this HU is weird. in the bass setting, the minus goes to 25, and plus is only till 6. so i kept the bass at minus 10 and to have more flexibility. right now you've set it at zero.. keep it at minus 10 and it'll be fine. :-).

point being, (i'm hungry n so the analogy) the hotel's set in terms of hygiene. but a) you need to go with someone who knows what's best there. (there's a long list here, and we're talking about foodies, so it need not be just one place, foodies will tell you what's good here and what's good there!) b) you need to order what the signature chef makes. that's what the restaurant is famous for.

now to me, LBM, Gunbir, Sam, B&T... n many more fall in signature chef category. it doesn't matter what kitchen they use, the recipe will be fantastic. probably the reason people have high expectations is that a lot of installs there have happened in their presence. a lot of installs have also happened in aman's presence, vineet's presence, .. n many other forum members presence... aman himself uses finolex. he wouldn't hesitate to recommend it, that's what he thinks works for him... so to me, forget a pro like gunbir, even his presence would have ensured better guidance and no problems. likewise there are many others who drop by. though sometimes ranaji gets pissed off, honestly on a 15-30k setup, a 2k ka wiring doesn't pinch him. per se, he hardly gets anything from it.

in terms of expectations, i find this city short. it doesn't have professionals. forget car audio. if i take something as simple as a govt bank opening on time, it's there in mumbai. people queue up and staff is on seat when the gate opens. but in delhi, half the staff ain't there even after an hour. mumbai is far more professional. and bangalore in a different league... from bikes to cars to audio - performance, mods, tuning, the city rocks. that city has "installers" as in "installers" who'll get their hands dirty, whatever it takes. it has talent. and it's not prejudiced.

in delhi, especially in car audio - my bar is very very low. if you don't get the feeling that you've been cheated, and if the car accessory dealer entertains you the second time, i'd say you've found a genuine guy. i have not come across a single person who has been to karol bagh or lajpat nagar and come back with a feeling of 'not been duped'.. whether for ignorance, expertise or ethics. there's no reason for driven to be out of it, by all means let the bricks keep coming. if it has to stand tall, it'll learn to take it in stride.

BUT besides that, i find members not making use of talent here. now if i look at the issue with the onus of t-bhp, with so many pros and enthusiasts on board, if one sees MEMBERS facing issues - at one level, i'd say either the people getting their ICE done aren't really concerned and putting up questions - OR - the community doesn't really care what fellow members are up to.

there's nothing we can do about people who don't ask, read, do their homework. there's years of threads on forum. though the search is not user friendly and pisses me off. but yes, as members, we can be more accessible and not let fellas become or at least feel like guinea pigs for anyone. we can share experiences. we can ensure members make well-informed choices. they listen. they understand. they see sides, before they jump. so do think about it...

[navin]

Originally Posted by montyguru

so gunbir says "you've set them very high". and again i said "yes". so he asked WHY? i said, this HU is weird. in the bass setting, the minus goes to 25, and plus is only till 6.

now to me, LBM, Gunbir, Sam, B&T... n many more fall in signature chef category. it doesn't matter what kitchen they use, the recipe will be fantastic. probably the reason people have high expectations is that a lot of installs there have happened in their presence. a lot of installs have also happened in aman's presence, vineet's presence, ..

BUT besides that, i find members not making use of talent here.

there's nothing we can do about people who don't ask, read, do their homework. there's years of threads on forum. though the search is not user friendly and pisses me off.

Having not been to Delhi for very very long I have no idea of the quality of the ICE installers there.

One of the primary reasons for setting up the Sound off and Show off section was for members to inspire others and also this would be a good way for members to know which members have good installs (which is why we prefer install pics to product pics).

Monty, on an average I get about 3 PMs a day about product choice, tuning, etc.. and I am not even in Gunbir, B&T, Sam's etc...league (speaking of which where is Autophile?). I am sure they get more.

If a member needs help or advice he/she should ask for it. I am sure most TBHPians would love to help a fellow member out.

Now lets back to the topic.

[tsk13]

Monty, you're spot on with your observations.

Navin, Delhi is largely ruled by jugaad Installers who apprentice under another Jugaad 'Ustaad Ji' and the story goes like another 'Ustaad-in-Making'. A headstrong attitude is an exemplary quality of Delhi installers and unfortunately, I've witnessed the same at Driven although after much persuasion the installer agreed on our points (the same has been discussed before).

Thank God, Delhiites have access to Gunbir Veerji. I remember while tuning my system, he found that one of the wires was inserted at the wrong place and rectified it. Else, due to installer's mistake I might have been cursing my ICE's manufacturers today.

[GT500]

Originally Posted by navin

Why should a member have to need the help of a fellow member with any particular installer. Installers should be helpful to members regardless na?

I completely agree with Navin & would like to say again that it is in fact an installer's duty to be aware & to know about their job, & it's basic sense to expect that.

Originally Posted by montyguru

point being, (i'm hungry n so the analogy) the hotel's set in terms of hygiene. but a) you need to go with someone who knows what's best there. (there's a long list here, and we're talking about foodies, so it need not be just one place, foodies will tell you what's good here and what's good there!) b) you need to order what the signature chef makes. that's what the restaurant is famous for.

@monty: Taking the analogy of the restaurant further, let me just say that if it’s a quality restaurant then any dish would be good, though I have to agree that the signature dish might be the best. So, one shouldn’t hesitate to order something apart from the signature dish if it’s a “quality” place one is sitting at, because that “something else” also ought to be good.

Originally Posted by montyguru

now to me, LBM, Gunbir, Sam, B&T... n many more fall in signature chef category. it doesn't matter what kitchen they use, the recipe will be fantastic. probably the reason people have high expectations is that a lot of installs there have happened in their presence. a lot of installs have also happened in aman's presence, vineet's presence, .. n many other forum members presence... so to me, forget a pro like gunbir, even his presence would have ensured better guidance and no problems. likewise there are many others who drop by. though sometimes ranaji gets pissed off, honestly on a 15-30k setup, a 2k ka wiring doesn't pinch him. per se, he hardly gets anything from it.

Why should a installers be supervised by a fellow Bhp’ian, we pay an installer over the market to have such quality by default.It isn’t our duty to guide him on how each and every thing will/should, if we would have known this wouldn’t we haven’t done it ourselves???

Though having a guru would be better, but it certainly isn't a "need" or a "requirement" as you make it sound but expecting an install to go through successfully only if it is being babysit by an experienced person(read "guru") is not the way to set up shop.

A manger/sales guy should have basic knowledge of what he is selling after all the customer doesn’t expect the sales people to have a Ph.D in the audio field, but expect that the stuff they recommend should work/be appropriate, which is why they are employed for in the first place.

Monty,no offense dude, the "2 k ka wiring" in question has been discussed on my(GT500) and Blackfire's thread extensively and the way the refund was handled shows that it pinches Mr.Rana and how.

Originally Posted by montyguru

in delhi, especially in car audio - my bar is very very low. whether for ignorance, expertise or ethics. there's no reason for driven to be out of it, by all means let the bricks keep coming. if it has to stand tall, it'll learn to take it in stride.

Take it in stride? Well, blackfire got a call today itself from Mr. Rana & his thread lists about what sort of a conversation it was & how well our posts have been taken in.

Originally Posted by montyguru

BUT besides that, i find members not making use of talent here. now if i look at the issue with the onus of t-bhp, with so many pros and enthusiasts on board, if one sees MEMBERS facing issues - at one level, i'd say either the people getting their ICE done aren't really concerned and putting up questions - OR - the community doesn't really care what fellow members are up to.

Well, if one is not really concerned with putting up queries it his loss, but putting the onus on the community is simply wrong , here everyone tries to help each other with whatever knowledge that they have be it professional or not.Plus, another possibility should be considered that if a member is facing issues, it might as well be because of lack of skill on part of the installer


Lastly, it’s all about perception. For instance, I can say that Delhi isn’t half as bad as you make it sound & proof enough is that the same place which you probably recommend is the one I don’t.



Cheerios

GT

[navin]

Originally Posted by tsk13

Navin, Delhi is largely ruled by jugaad Installers..Thank God, Delhiites have access to Gunbir Veerji. I remember while tuning my system, he found that one of the wires was inserted at the wrong place and rectified it.

Originally Posted by Gt500

Why should a installers be supervised by a fellow Bhp’ian, we pay an installer over the market to have such quality by default.

Lastly, it’s all about perception. For instance, I can say that Delhi isn’t half as bad as you make it sound & proof enough is that the same place which you probably recommend is the one I don’t.

Not knowing Delhi I wont comment on the state of affairs there. Suffice to say that Gunbirji is probably one of the best installers in Delhi. Sadly even he has only so many hours in day and cat possible do each and every install in town.

[montyguru]

Originally Posted by Gt500

I completely agree with Navin & would like to say again that it is in fact an installer's duty to be aware & to know about their job, & it's basic sense to expect that.

nothing wrong in expecting that, but reality is different. i have said this before, and i say it again. "Installers" are available provided you are willing to "pay" them. you go to a shop to buy material and he fits if for you, that too at discounted rates - i have very clearly put both, the positives and negatives of driven on this very thread, i'm sure that you haven't read them before going there, had you followed it, you would have seen how bydesign had a bad experience and i very clearly said he could have gone for finolex and saved on his wiring/boxes etc and chosen where he wanted to go.

now, take the fake wiring thread, it's been put up the best person in business to talk about it. it's been there since god knows how long. but do we still have people going and buying JBL without having a look at it? and doing that, being a MEMBER here, if you try to suggest not to buy JBL because they have fakes, how fair is that? i mean, all the info was here!!!

coming to the analogy, the restaurant is good. you've had a bad experience and i know why. i don't want to get into a debate here, purely because for the record i have a commercial involvement, and how so much ever i may try to sound unbiased, it won't be taken in the right spirit. so let's leave that.

there's no need for an installer to be supervised by a fellow bhpian. just that an 'ice enthusiast' directory or thread can answer all queries and basic doubts, as even most gurus aren't regular on the forum. the goof ups that have happened have been discussed here dozens of times, and any person with the slightest knowledge would know a) whom to ask b) where to go for what c) pros n cons of each

a manager of the store goes by what the brand says or the owners or next in line say. i mean, tomorrow if you go to germany and see some machines being used to make rainbow, are you going to take driven to court because he sold rainbow as handmade in germany?

regards appropriate, well, for my listening taste, since i know i don't listen at full volumes and never utilise the full potential of amp, we have installed this before in other cars with no complains. but i agree, this should have been informed or discussed with you before, that is a mistake on the part of driven.

Originally Posted by Gt500

Monty,no offense dude, the "2 k ka wiring" in question has been discussed on my(GT500) and Blackfire's thread extensively and the way the refund was handled shows that it pinches Mr.Rana and how.

you've put your side, i've heard the other side. as i said, i can't put it here. and ranaji doesn't write on the forum... so till an unbiased person can put his side, i'll let this rest.

Originally Posted by Gt500

Well, if one is not really concerned with putting up queries it his loss, but putting the onus on the community is simply wrong , here everyone tries to help each other with whatever knowledge that they have be it professional or not. Plus, another possibility should be considered that if a member is facing issues, it might as well be because of lack of skill on part of the installer

i'm not putting the onus on community. it's a large forum, people are free to choose what they do. all i'm saying is that, in the presence of senior members, who've been there, done that, seen it all, with things having been discussed before... there can be a better way of handling things. to me as an individual, a bad ice install experience by a MEMBER of the forum reflects poorly on the forum... and there's no absolutely no reason to it for happen... i've seen fantastic posts and support here... so much that if you make it an issue, sam can take it up and probably see that scosche kits with the label of importer also mention guage!! so why the fuss?

Originally Posted by Gt500

Lastly, it’s all about perception. For instance, I can say that Delhi isn’t half as bad as you make it sound & proof enough is that the same place which you probably recommend is the one I don’t. Cheerios
GT

i agree about the perception part. i have my reasons to recommend driven for reason a, gunbir for b, LBM for c, navin for d, B&T for e, aman for f... that's my perception, yours could be different, and it's entirely valid for your reasons. but keep us informed about a better place when you find one.

[gunbir]

Navinji, Thank you for the kind words. Some things I think I should clear:

Sir, I'm NOT a Guru! A guru is someone who teaches or spreads knowledge, which I don't. So sir, you ARE a Guru. Whether you like it or not. I am just a music lover turned audio lover turned audio salesman.

Sir, I am NOT an installer! So the question of being "probably one of the best" doesn't arise. I head a company which distributes audio products. I have mentioned this before. Though I know you tend to be forgetful, but please make a note of this one. Thanks in advance.

Sir, Like you rightly said, I only have 24 hours in a day like everyone else, BUT since I don't have a life or a wife, I have lots of time to help my fellow music lovers. I don't know who spreads these rumors about me being very busy, I'm not! As most people who know me know, I am available on phone, email, internet and in person for any audio related queries. I love talking audio, the highlight of my day it is.



On the topic of DRIVEN, I think much has been said and while I could add some things unsaid, it would be best to just say this:

I am saddened by the experience some of you have had at DRIVEN. I don't think they should take your criticism in their stride, rather I think they should stop and take notice. I know this team (most of them anyway) since 2002 and I can't count how many hours I have spent with them. So I take your complaints as a personal failure and I apologize on their behalf. If you choose never to return to DRIVEN and steer all your friends clear off them, It is but understandable after your experience.

I hope DRIVEN will learn from their mistakes and convert this 70-80% satisfaction into 100% customer satisfaction.

[montyguru]

Originally Posted by gunbir

I apologize on their behalf. If you choose never to return to DRIVEN and steer all your friends clear off them, It is but understandable after your experience.

I hope DRIVEN will learn from their mistakes and convert this 70-80% satisfaction into 100% customer satisfaction.

very very well said. there are many many things driven has to learn, owning up and apologizing is one of them.

keeping this incident aside, sometimes i feel driven just doesn't want to learn. they are just not ready to keep cheap or fake wires like 99% of the rest. they also don't want to sell finolex probably as they might be prone to cracking given the severe temperatures a car reaches or reasons best known to them. and stubborn that they are, they'll hire a carpenter to spend all day to make a box with no leaks, using hi-quality terminal points, better grade carpets, when nobody is asking for it. they'll also custom make MDF rings, breaking expensive blades in the process. and to top it all, they work till 12AM at night, when they should simply be refusing to take on installs in the first place. THEY need to apologise sir, not YOU, because the customer, as we all know, is always right!

some other things have been mentioned before, use of carpets, install seat covers in new cars... some very very valid complains. please do ask driven to take notice of it. members criticizing and bringing these things to notice do deserve a tandoori chicken, if not anything else.