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Old 17th January 2021, 18:57   #16
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Whatever it may be, VW's Diesel gate is a blessing in disguise. If not for that, Tesla's competitors wouldn't have invested in electric car technology the way they did after the scam came to light. There was simply no way you could've pushed IC engines further in terms of emissions and performance expectations combined.

As they say, God bless the competition! I'm pretty sure we'll have a good assortment of electric cars in the next 10 years. The only thing I have no hope for is a reliable charging network atleast here in India.

Regarding the ongoing debate on reliability, I'm pretty sure Tesla will have to improve it no matter what since the American market is a sucker for reliability.

There will always be fanboys-there is no right or wrong. What matters is whether a user is happy or not despite how reliable/ unreliable it is. Ask VW fanboys- they love their DSG's despite knowing how frequently they fail.
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Old 17th January 2021, 18:58   #17
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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
Luxury and reliability are 2 different things, often they do not go together. For some lack of engine noise, vibrations are a luxury.
https://Youtu.be/r2H8Oqm1eQ4
Actually I was not talking about reliability, I was talking about the faults with which these cars come out of the showroom. Reliability was actually brought up by extremetorque. Don't you agree that good engineering is luxury? For e.g. an expensive car will have panels that fit properly as opposed to a cheap Lada where they might not.

The video is a guy (while making an Ad for a Mercedes) theorizing about why luxury cars are unreliable rather than going into the details of why they are unreliable. For engineering in the title, I was expecting some case studies or examples of failures in these cars.

Also, I'd take the information from these youtube engineering channels with a grain of salt. They don't have anything to lose (as opposed to a researcher or someone writing a theses) if they get things wrong, and since they have to churn videos out to remain relevant, they often make mistakes.
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Old 17th January 2021, 20:48   #18
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Who else would buy a new car with a known faults list like this? Even my Alfa has a shorter known faults list than that.

Let me give you an example. Alfa Romeo has a very bad reliability history. But Alfisti still buy them because of the driving experience and looks. It is exactly same with tesla fanboys. They buy them and talk well and loudly about them even though they are subpar products. And I also suspect that a lot of them aren't actually car people to actually be able to judge a car properly.
How ironic, an Alfa Romeo fanboy hating fanboys of some other brand. Do you also agree that Fanboys are there for all brands and not just limited to Tesla's.

You are the other side of the same coin, one side is Tesla Fanboys(I accept there are Tesla fanboys but they may form just 1-2% of people who love Tesla's ) and the other side is people with extreme hatred and stereotype anyone who love a Tesla as Tesla Fanboys.

Seen numerous videos of rolling coal, hitting, keying Tesla's shows the hatred and misery of people who cannot accept things other than what they believe, the same hatred we have seen on Capitol hill 2 weeks back, and I firmly believe these are the same people.



I myself love Tesla as a brand, the Tesla cars. I love how a small startup started shaking the whole industry, how it made EVs sexy and changed our thought from thinking EVs as a golf cart. Without Tesla the Liion battery prices would not be this cheap, without Tesla governments may not push for banning ICE because they never knew the true potential of EVs. It would be difficult to explain all these to someone who does not believe in EVs and think that the EV revolution came just to make Thunberg happy.

Anyways Tesla survived these many years with attacks from the ICE manufacturers, daily bankwupt articles sponsored by the oil industry. They are in their best phase, now no one can stop it, I am glad I did not fall for BS stories about Tesla's on sites like Seeking Alpha.

A well Engineered car is a luxury, and Tesla's are the best engineered cars you could buy. Their software, the castings, the motors, the octavalve heat pump, the safety are just amazing. You can dismiss everything and stick to a few problems here and there which by the way exists with every brand.

Yes they do have issues with panel gaps, if they would have concentrated on those panel gaps they would have resolved them with very less effort. The hardest question is why an engineering marvel like Tesla not concentrating any efforts on removing panel gaps?







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Old 17th January 2021, 22:38   #19
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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
How ironic, an Alfa Romeo fanboy hating fanboys of some other brand. Do you also agree that Fanboys are there for all brands and not just limited to Tesla's.
I wouldn't call Alfisti fanboys because we are the first people who shit talk AR for their reliability problems lol. Fanboys on the other hand obsess over their chosen 'god' and refuse to accept that there are faults with their god.

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
You are the other side of the same coin, one side is Tesla Fanboys(I accept there are Tesla fanboys but they may form just 1-2% of people who love Tesla's ) and the other side is people with extreme hatred and stereotype anyone who love a Tesla as Tesla Fanboys.
What makes you think I have extreme hatred for tesla fanboys? I just don't like you people that's all. I don't namecall like you did, I just point out the flaws with a company you people insist is an amazing company.

Again, we have seen evidence that teslas are badly made (see my previous posts) and yet rank highly on customer satisfaction surveys. Only possible explanations for this behavior is that either that fanboys are buying those cars or tesla buyers have really low standards.

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
Seen numerous videos of rolling coal, hitting, keying Tesla's shows the hatred and misery of people who cannot accept things other than what they believe, the same hatred we have seen on Capitol hill 2 weeks back, and I firmly believe these are the same people.

https://Youtu.be/Vi-7OJ0w9dY
I see what you are trying to do here. Comparing a violent organization like BLM with me isn't going to stop me from arguing my point. And why would you even go there if you truly believe you are in the right? Someone who resorts to such personal attacks does so because they know they are in the wrong and cannot argue with facts.

The thing is, many luxury cars get keyed or get damaged due to jealousy. But you don't see those videos of Mercedes/Audi/BMWs because those cars don't come with a dash cam from factory.

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
I myself love Tesla as a brand, the Tesla cars. I love how a small startup started shaking the whole industry, how it made EVs sexy and changed our thought from thinking EVs as a golf cart. Without Tesla the Liion battery prices would not be this cheap, without Tesla governments may not push for banning ICE because they never knew the true potential of EVs. It would be difficult to explain all these to someone who does not believe in EVs and think that the EV revolution came just to make Thunberg happy.
I see you went through my post history. Then you'd know that I'm not anti EV because I myself own an Ebike. So you have to ask yourself, why doesn't fellow like tesla? Maybe he doesn't like it precisely because of the reasons he mentions? And the reason I don't like EV subsidies whenever the government interferes, citizens always pay for it. So I prefer that EVs be adopted only when they offer suitable substitute for ICE vehicles.

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
Anyways Tesla survived these many years with attacks from the ICE manufacturers, daily bankwupt articles sponsored by the oil industry. They are in their best phase, now no one can stop it, I am glad I did not fall for BS stories about Tesla's on sites like Seeking Alpha.
I don't make any decisions based on opinion pieces. I only make decisions based on data. Everything I've linked is hard data pointing out the flaws in tesla.


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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
A well Engineered car is a luxury, and Tesla's are the best engineered cars you could buy. Their software, the castings, the motors, the octavalve heat pump, the safety are just amazing. You can dismiss everything and stick to a few problems here and there which by the way exists with every brand.
But is their software good though? I've posted many links of 'autopilot' killing drivers. Yet you insist that their software is amazing. This is fanboy behavior. And who says that their motors are amazing? Is this your opinion or is there data to prove this?

But I haven't pointed out a few faults, I've pointed out many faults (missing bolts, mismatching bolts, wrong VIN(!), condensation in lights and cameras, rust, chipping paint, peeling paint, missing lights(!!)). These faults aren't present in other manufacturers, and if present, they will make it right instead of cancelling the order.


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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
Yes they do have issues with panel gaps, if they would have concentrated on those panel gaps they would have resolved them with very less effort.
Which is one of the main reasons why tesla can't be considered to be a luxury manufacturer. You say that they are an engineering marvel. This is again an opinion not backed up by any data.

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
The hardest question is why an engineering marvel like Tesla not concentrating any efforts on removing panel gaps?
Probably because their customers are fanboys who don't care about quality



I'll make it simple for you. Answer me 2 questions.

1. Is it proper for a car to have it's components held together by wooden furniture pieces rather than automotive grade fastenings?

2. Is it proper for a car's sunroof to flyoff as the car is being driven home from the showroom? The fact that the owner of the car didn't stop to see if the 10 kg+ glass piece hit anyone says what you need to know about tesla owners.

Last edited by SreeT : 17th January 2021 at 22:49.
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Old 17th January 2021, 23:02   #20
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Default Re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

The future is electric whether we like it or not. Also, Tesla as a single company has pushed the boundaries of what's possible using good engineering talent. I really hope that we get more affordable electric cars soon.
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Old 17th January 2021, 23:45   #21
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The future is electric whether we like it or not. Also, Tesla as a single company has pushed the boundaries of what's possible using good engineering talent. I really hope that we get more affordable electric cars soon.
The future isn't in contention here. I am an engineer so I don't speak in absolutes, so I say that in the future, our transportation needs will most probably be met by electric/hydrogen vehicles. And in my opinion, the only thing tesla is excellent at is marketing.

The argument is about weather tesla is a luxury car maker or not.
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Old 18th January 2021, 00:11   #22
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The future isn't in contention here. I am an engineer so I don't speak in absolutes, so I say that in the future, our transportation needs will most probably be met by electric/hydrogen vehicles. And in my opinion, the only thing tesla is excellent at is marketing.

The argument is about weather tesla is a luxury car maker or not.
Last week you:
Quote:
An Electric revolution will come when the consumer gets a product that is superior. This tax subsidized nonsense will not last.

How much more can their governments squeeze out of their citizens to keep Ms. Thunberg happy?
Is electric the future or non sense, make up your mind?

You can well say autopilot software has problems, to me it's a very very complex problem, none of the companies ever attempted, a software giant like Google is just limited to one city in their self driving. BTW..VW on the other hand could not have a proper infotainment software in their iD3 cars.
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Old 18th January 2021, 01:11   #23
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Last week you:

Is electric the future or non sense, make up your mind?
So I said that the revolution will come when the consumers get a superior product. And your interpretation is that I am implying that there will be no electric cars in the future.

So by logic, in your opinion electric cars will never be superior to ICE cars

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
You can well say autopilot software has problems, to me it's a very very complex problem, none of the companies ever attempted, a software giant like Google is just limited to one city in their self driving. BTW..VW on the other hand could not have a proper infotainment software in their iD3 cars.
You are aware that 'autopilot' is basically lane keep assist available from almost all major car manufacturers for 4+ years, let alone luxury car manufacturers right? I've driven a SEAT (discount VW brand) which even had it. The system in a 5-series BMW that I drove worked beautifully.

Autopilot started out as the lane keep assist system by Mobieye which is used by most of the proper manufacturers. Then Mobieye stopped working with tesla as tesla keept over promising it's abilities IIRC. BTW while tesla keeps only using cameras and radar for autopilot, it's Audi which is actually pushing this tech forward with the use of LIDAR in A8.

Answer me 2 questions.

1. Is it proper for a car to have it's components held together by wooden furniture pieces rather than automotive grade fastenings?

2. Is it proper for a car's sunroof to flyoff as the car is being driven home from the showroom? The fact that the owner of the car didn't stop to see if the 10 kg+ glass piece hit anyone says what you need to know about tesla owners.
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Old 18th January 2021, 02:14   #24
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So I said that the revolution will come when the consumers get a superior product. And your interpretation is that I am implying that there will be no electric cars in the future.

So by logic, in your opinion electric cars will never be superior to ICE cars


You are aware that 'autopilot' is basically lane keep assist available from almost all major car manufacturers for 4+ years, let alone luxury car manufacturers right? I've driven a SEAT (discount VW brand) which even had it. The system in a 5-series BMW that I drove worked beautifully.


Answer me 2 questions.

1. Is it proper for a car to have it's components held together by wooden furniture pieces rather than automotive grade fastenings?

2. Is it proper for a car's sunroof to flyoff as the car is being driven home from the showroom? The fact that the owner of the car didn't stop to see if the 10 kg+ glass piece hit anyone says what you need to know about tesla owners.
I never said Tesla's do not have any problems, they certainly need to improve on their QC.

Every company has their own share of problems, telling the same thing in every post, saying only fanboys buy Tesla's is just not correct. BTW..hoping to see more fanboys in 2021 with 800K sales, 1M fanboys in 2022, 1.5M fanboys in 2023.

Hope to see more EVs from all OEMs.

To me EVs are no nonsense, they are already a far superior product than ICE, fortunately most people and governments agree EVs are superior.

Cheers.
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Old 18th January 2021, 02:40   #25
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I never said Tesla's do not have any problems, they certainly need to improve on their QC.
Someone said to me "A well Engineered car is a luxury, and Tesla's are the best engineered cars you could buy."


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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
Every company has their own share of problems, telling the same thing in every post, saying only fanboys buy Tesla's is just not correct. BTW..hoping to see more fanboys in 2021 with 800K sales, 1M fanboys in 2022, 1.5M fanboys in 2023.

Hope to see more EVs from all OEMs.
No they don't, atleast not on the laughable level of Tesla.


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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
To me EVs are no nonsense, they are already a far superior product than ICE, fortunately most people and governments agree EVs are superior.

Cheers.
There is a huge flaw in your logic here. If governments think that EVs are already superior, why do they give subsidies? If most people think EVs are superior, why aren't they buying them? They still make up a tiny fraction of overall car sales, unless they are heavily subsidized and ICE cars heavily restricted by oil money like in Norway.

And calling EVs already superior is a funny joke.
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Old 18th January 2021, 03:33   #26
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Someone said to me "A well Engineered car is a luxury, and Tesla's are the best engineered cars you could buy."



No they don't, atleast not on the laughable level of Tesla.




There is a huge flaw in your logic here. If governments think that EVs are already superior, why do they give subsidies? If most people think EVs are superior, why aren't they buying them? They still make up a tiny fraction of overall car sales, unless they are heavily subsidized and ICE cars heavily restricted by oil money like in Norway.

And calling EVs already superior is a funny joke.
I just do not want to prolong the topic, this would be my last attempt.

Let me try to explain clearly, their engineering is top notch, their motors(see video shared above), battery packs, BMS, their autopilot chips, autopilot dojo supercomputer are the best and all engineered and designed in their labs, no other automaker can even think of doing it, even acknowledged by their rivals. Acknowledge and respect people who do great things.

You can see Sandy Munro(real automotive engineer) opening Tesla's and sharing all the fantastic engineering.

Quote:
One stunned engineer from a major Japanese automaker examined the computer and declared, "We cannot do it."
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Mo...-Toyota-and-VW

The problems come with their QC in manufacturing, that's a minor problem for a great engineering firm, can be easily fixed, as I said above I don't know why they are not doing the easiest part first.

It's easy for Tesla to fix their QC problem then the OEMs reaching Tesla level of engineering.

Have you also analysed subsidies received by oil( some estimates say 750B$ of annual subsidy received by oil), let the governments put carbon tax on every thing including EVs, power generation, oil drilling. I am also for no subsidies, let's see who would survive. Oil keeps dirtying with no consequences, no paying for health, until the diesel gate, no outrage on NOx emissions.

EVs are superior, cheaper to buy and run when everyone pays carbon tax and none recieves subsidy. Governments are not stupid as you project, there is a climate crisis, 2020 turned out to be 3rd hottest year, the cost we are paying for losses in the floods runs into hundreds of billions.

Last edited by SKC-auto : 18th January 2021 at 03:36.
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Old 18th January 2021, 04:45   #27
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Let me try to explain clearly, their engineering is top notch, their motors(see video shared above), battery packs, BMS, their autopilot chips, autopilot dojo supercomputer are the best and all engineered and designed in their labs, no other automaker can even think of doing it, even acknowledged by their rivals. Acknowledge and respect people who do great things.

You can see Sandy Munro(real automotive engineer) opening Tesla's and sharing all the fantastic engineering.
I think what you are trying to say is that their design (rather than engineering) is good but their manufacturing abilities are bad (manufacturing comes under engineering). And I still haven't seen any data to the claim that their components are better. Everything you've linked are opinion pieces. For e.g. to prove the claim that teslas motors are better, what Mr. Monroe must do is compare that to another EV's electric motor on a test setup.

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
I can understand why this might sound impressive to a layman, but what the 6 years this opinion piece refers to is the time it takes for manufacturers to setup their assembly lines to make these components. Not that tesla has access to mystery technology from the future that these manufacturers can't access. That piece is written in such a way to make tesla sound as impressive as possible in order to get as many shares from the fanboy community.

And the difference between tesla's system and the systems (what I gather from the article) from proper manufacturers is that while tesla has a singular computer that handles pretty much everything on the car, proper car makers have multiple computers that each handle a singular function on the car. So if the main computer fails in the tesla (which is possible given their manufacturing abilities), pretty much everything stops on the car. For e.g. due to the data storage not able to withstand the read and write operations required by the system, touchscreen functions stop working: https://insideevs.com/news/376037/te...-memory-issue/


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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
The problems come with their QC in manufacturing, that's a minor problem for a great engineering firm, can be easily fixed, as I said above I don't know why they are not doing the easiest part first.

It's easy for Tesla to fix their QC problem then the OEMs reaching Tesla level of engineering.
Again opinions rather than facts or data. You do realize VW and has been outselling Tesla in the Netherlands and Norway right? Seems like they've already reached or even exceeded tesla's 'level of engineering' if we assume that consumers choose the better engineered product, which in my opinion is a fair assumption.

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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
Have you also analysed subsidies received by oil( some estimates say 750B$ of annual subsidy received by oil), let the governments put carbon tax on every thing including EVs, power generation, oil drilling. I am also for no subsidies, let's see who would survive. Oil keeps dirtying with no consequences, no paying for health, until the diesel gate, no outrage on NOx emissions.
I'd love to see the data on that, because in India, according to this publication [Page 9] India doesn't really subsidize oil anymore, we only subsidize cooking gas. Coming to the topic of NOx emissions, EVs emit almost as much particulate matter as ICE vehicles due to their higher mass (from tyres).


The tailpipe PM emissions from modern Euro 6 VWs(!) are actually lesser than the air they breathe in according to a test carried out by the TV program 'Automobil' in Germany.

Also there's also the issue of how dangerous PM actually is. The data I found is in the paper "Healthy environment, healthy lives: how the environment influences health and well-being in Europe" by the EU. It estimates that in Slovakia, due to PM, people lose 1517 days of life per 100,000 people. Which means one dies on average 5 days earlier than they actually would due to PM pollution.


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Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
EVs are superior, cheaper to buy and run when everyone pays carbon tax and none recieves subsidy. Governments are not stupid as you project, there is a climate crisis, 2020 turned out to be 3rd hottest year, the cost we are paying for losses in the floods runs into hundreds of billions.
Again, opinions not backed by facts. The EVs are superior claim is plain nonsense and is a braindead claim to make. Tell me, can you make the journey from KA01 to AP31 with an EV currently? And remember, you need 8x the charging stations for each petrol bunk to satisfy the energy demand if we replace all ICE cars with EVs.

Last edited by SreeT : 18th January 2021 at 04:49.
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Old 18th January 2021, 10:23   #28
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I think the discussion has turned to a Tesla Non-believer vs Tesla believer fight.

Everything from luxury and to some extent reliability is subjective. Luxury more so.

For some, reliability means not having to go to the workshop for a big fault frequently. They might be okay with small rattles and some lose panels. For others, even the smallest rattle is a sign of unreliability.

For some luxury means a sea of leather inside the cabin and impeccable fit and finish , for some it could be a magic carpet ride, quiteness and lack of vibrations whereas for others it could be technology.

Its all relative to an extent, from market to market and even from person to person.

The market is changing. Now luxury is as much about technology as its about fit n finish and material/build quality. There's a reason why companies like Mercedes Benz are coming out with over the top curved display-dashboard kind of stuff with their "Hyperscreen" or whatever it was called. It has turned into a "mine is bigger than yours" contest.
One must also not forget about how a company treats their customers. That is also part of the "luxury experience". One thing that we cannot deny is that Tesla treats is customers very well and is good at pampering them like luxury car dealers do.

While Tesla is not a luxury car manufacturer in the traditional sense, its cool factor is undeniable and we have to accept that 90% of luxury car buyers buy it because of its desirability and coolness rather tham for outright luxury. This is Tesla's advantage. They are the most "desirable" car brand now. They are like the Apple of the Automotive world. Their entire ecosystem "just works". Customers don't have too much to worry about and whenever there is the ocassional mishap, they make sure the customer is taken care of and ensures they don't go on a tirade on the internet.

Just like apple, whatever they do, whether genius or stupid, everyone copies them. This is also one of the reason some hate Tesla. Their favorite car brands are forcing them to accept things they don't want just because Tesla did it and everyone thinks its cool.

Ex:Apple has removed charger from the box. Suddenly everyone has started removing chargers from their phone's box. Same thing happened to the headphone jack (Especially for their high end models)
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Old 18th January 2021, 11:13   #29
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I think the discussion has turned to a Tesla Non-believer vs Tesla believer fight.
How can a individual not even have a slight bit of doubt after reading everything I've posted?

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Originally Posted by ZenMaster View Post
...One thing that we cannot deny is that Tesla treats is customers very well and is good at pampering them like luxury car dealers do.
Ahem, I've linked 2 cases of them doing exactly the opposite of that.
https://insideevs.com/news/366374/ne...ion-documents/
https://insideevs.com/news/463589/te...very-refusals/

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Originally Posted by ZenMaster View Post

Their entire ecosystem "just works".
What is this ecosystem you speak of?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster View Post


Customers don't have too much to worry about and whenever there is the ocassional mishap, they make sure the customer is taken care of and ensures they don't go on a tirade on the internet.
What?

https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/...enter-problems
https://marketrealist.com/2019/09/mu...ervice-issues/
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/11/tesl...in-survey.html
https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/...entre-problems
https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesl...sues-problems/

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Just like apple, whatever they do, whether genius or stupid, everyone copies them. This is also one of the reason some hate Tesla. Their favorite car brands are forcing them to accept things they don't want just because Tesla did it and everyone thinks its cool.
Can you kindly point out any examples?
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Old 18th January 2021, 11:53   #30
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Default Re: Tesla & other electric cars challenge the dominance of German luxury brands

It is certainly true that Tesla is taking up the market share of the big German three - Mercedes, BMW and Audi but these brands won't give up without a fight. This is because the Germans brands have been surprisingly agile enough to quickly shift to EVs even though they are still a couple of years behind Tesla in terms of range. Infact, I believe by 2022, we will have a EQS (S class equivalent EV) by Mercedes which should take back some of the market share, this is because:

1) There is a still a base of conservative buyers in Europe and the US who will surely go for a Mercedes/BMW EV over a Tesla (but not the current gen German EVs since they clearly need to catch up with Tesla).

2) Teslas still come with spartan interiors for their price and good interiors that is important for some people given the price they pay. One of the key reason for the Taycan's success is that its interiors (+ superior handling to Tesla Model S).

I believe the Korean and German carmakers will successfully convert to EVs remain key players while Tesla and Chinese makers will carve their own space within the market and perhaps even dominate them. The only real losers will be some of the Japanese brands who are too slow to change.
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