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Old 13th October 2021, 09:44   #16
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

Maruti is not allergic to EVs. They are just being strategic in their approach.
Maruti has the "value brand" image so it cannot sell EVs at premium prices. The biggest input cost of an EV is the battery pack. Given that all Li batteries are imported, MSIL has very little cost control, so they can't sell a value for money EV at present.

To address this issue Suzuki, Toshiba and Denso have formed a JV to manufacture Li-ion batteries in India. They are going to be making the actual cells and not just assembling a battery pack from imported cells.
Winning the EV war is all about cost control of the most expensive component -- the battery pack. MSIL seems to be on the right track.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Maruti simply doesn't have the R&D capability to build an EV.
EV tech is so simple that anybody with the necessary capital can jump into the game. How else do you explain so many new players entering into EV production? Even mobile phone companies are getting into EV.

You don't even have to have the expertise in-house, you can buy all the necessary components and expertise from specialized suppliers. There are engineering firms who will design the BMS and charging system for you, companies who will sell you the motor etc. Even on this forum we have members building electric cars (Swift Dzire EV - Systematic conversion to an electric car!) and bikes (My Electric Discover | I converted my Bajaj Discover 125 to electric with a lithium-ion battery) from imported Chinese parts. EV tech is that simple.

Last edited by Electromotive : 13th October 2021 at 10:13. Reason: Formatting
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:45   #17
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

MS will be one of the big players in indian EV industry, considering they make a safe EV, not one which blows up like the early EV's in china which were so called government certified.

All indian market wants is a sub 10L EV (WagonR seems perfect for this) with 250-300 Km range (I'm being too optimistic ) and a 15-17L CSUV with 350-400 Km range (Creta/Seltos EV, again very optimistic, no chance of this happening anytime soon) with a decent fast charging network along the highways. The day this happens, the consumers won't need to choose between ICE & EV's.

Today's EV options below 15-17 Lakh are pretty much a trade-off atleast the range part is.
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Old 13th October 2021, 09:55   #18
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

And thatís why I donít foresee a EV revolution coming any soon. Maruti and add to the list Hyundai (Barring Kona) , both with a market share of above 60percent, how many EVs do they have in their line up ,Nada..Zero!

Itís a vicious circle, Customers want the infrastructure to be setup first and prices of the EVs to come down, manufacturerís want demand to go up so economies of scale can set in and eventually bring the prices down eventually leading to setting up the required infrastructure.
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Old 13th October 2021, 11:00   #19
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul Rao View Post
To recover the difference in cost of an EV vs an ICE you need a car that runs 50+ km in city every day, and ideally a max of 300 km in a day. No logical person with that much running will buy a Maruti.
It makes more business sense for Maruti to invest in the middle of the market CNG and they are doing that.

Rahul
The issue is no one knows which side can the market turn. TML is investing heavily in the EV space and to their credit have a line up of products that are best to take over a turning tide. Some manufacturers are going the hybrid way to test markets. If petrol stations additionally introduce EV fast charging stations to expand their business models, the EV adoption can significantly scale up and Maruthi will be left high and dry. They have already missed the SUV bus in India, which has created the fastest growing segment.
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Old 13th October 2021, 11:08   #20
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

How many horse carriage companies started manufacturing cars?

Hence I don't understand why we expect all ICE manufacturers to start selling EVs.

If EVs don't pickup then ICE wins and they wouldn't have wasted money in development and if EVs do replace ICE then they will participate in a niche space or just go bust.
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Old 13th October 2021, 11:26   #21
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

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Originally Posted by anandhsub View Post
How many horse carriage companies started manufacturing cars?

Hence I don't understand why we expect all ICE manufacturers to start selling EVs.
A lot of them did make EVs at the turn of the last century and went bust shortly after. I guess grass was cheaper and horses were faster.

Meanwhile we are running out of coal to produce power in the country while the power plants themselves are not fully utilized, what a world we are in.

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Old 13th October 2021, 11:34   #22
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

I don't see anything wrong with Maruti's approach - yet. They are playing to their strengths which is packaging decades old technology into affordable and reliable bundles. They intend to play the same way in EVs. I expect a slew of Marutis with the battery packs currently used in cars like Tigor once those cars graduate to better battery packs.
To use an analogy, consider the EV industry as a train. If Tesla is the engine, Maruti intends to be the last coach. So long as they have internal teams that are tuned into the developments in EV space, I find the approach to be workable.

Having said that, EVs have levelled the auto industry big time. Your expertise in building ICE engines and transmissions don't matter anymore. On that count, Maruti has missed a big opportunity to be at the forefront and climb a few rungs of the ladder to become an innovative company. Probably the company culture was tuned to process (i.e., repeatability) and not innovation (i.e., unpredictability, willingness to fail etc.). Jeff Immelt alluded to it in his memoir about the time at GE. He rues the company's focus on process, compliance etc. which stifled innovation.

Last edited by sramanat : 13th October 2021 at 11:46. Reason: fix typo
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Old 13th October 2021, 12:10   #23
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

Traditional companies just don't know how to be like agile, new-age startups. I'm guessing this is also the reason why Tata might want their EV division to work like a startup and try new things without worrying about cash flow and profits for a few years. Something will stick. Tesla also burned cash for over 10 years before showing positive cash flow.

Toyota, Honda and Maruti have to justify the cost of transition to the "committee", as they said in the Ford v Ferrari movie. I recently noticed that Maruti's market share is down from 50% to 34% while Tata almost doubled.

On the flip side, I think Maruti have the widest sales and service network and the largest mindshare among buyers. They can afford to come late to the party and still make big waves. If they just make 2-3 spots available for charging at all of their sales and service centres, they'll have the largest charging network in India practically overnight.
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Old 13th October 2021, 12:13   #24
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

The only big hurdle in front of MS is producing an EV at the price they feel would sell. It is a trial and error process. They may launch a market dud. Maruti has had its share of duds in the past. MS is a cash-rich company in India and they cannot be foolish enough to assume they can wait 5 years or more with the current crop of outdated models and then launch EV's. With no diesel engines, MS will lose market share rapidly in the next couple of years to competition with diesel engines and modern vehicles, good auto gearboxes, and EV's.

MS seems to have a long

I don't agree that everyone is waiting for infra to develop to get an EV. Really, you need one charging point accessible, every day at your convenience, and then your everyday commute is mostly taken care of. That is how it has worked for the past 2 decades.

Yes, for highway use, you need the EV infra in place for quick charging.

Surprised to hear that MS has not furthered the WagonR EV project. The recent developments should get MS moving in the right direction to get it going. If they really adopt the 'Humse na ho payege' attitude, it will be sad to see MS fading away to oblivion.

I get the negative sentiment directed to MS here, and I am no fan of MS and its current strategy of a long list of 'Not Available' (diesel engines, good CVT, TC options, 5* rated cars).

I am sure they will turn around as they have a large market share. If you look at what Hero did for the first 6-8 years after split from Honda, which was absolutely nothing in terms of new products, and now they have some new and even desirable products. Slowly, they have developed some capability. Give them time and in the meantime buy form others.

Last edited by Mafia : 13th October 2021 at 12:23.
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Old 13th October 2021, 13:14   #25
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
EV tech is so simple that anybody with the necessary capital can jump into the game. How else do you explain so many new players entering into EV production? Even mobile phone companies are getting into EV.
Iíve said this before, and will reiterate here :

Just because new players with fat pockets are doing it, it doesnít mean everyone or anyone is going to succeed. Dyson sunk $400M on EV project with no avail.

Apple car and Sony Vision S are nowhere near production, let alone launch ready. Literally 10 lakh students give JEE. Is it, by any means, easy?

They give it because itís high reward ó much like EV industry which has huge growth potential. A good analogy would be the CA gold rush ó lots of people went to California in mid 1850s because gold was discovered.

Not all of them would eventually find enough gold to recover expenses. A lot of them would die (analogy, go bankrupt) and some would make it through.

So companies getting into EVs is just a way to not miss out on the trend ó they see a huge market ó lots of people who will eventually, due to reasons of their own, switch to EVs. They see a void that they can fill, a supply gap in the demand.

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You don't even have to have the expertise in-house, you can buy all the necessary components and expertise from specialized suppliers. There are engineering firms who will design the BMS and charging system for you, companies who will sell you the motor etc. Even on this forum we have members building electric cars (Swift Dzire EV - Systematic conversion to an electric car!) and bikes (My Electric Discover | I converted my Bajaj Discover 125 to electric with a lithium-ion battery) from imported Chinese parts. EV tech is that simple.
Humbly disagree, You absolutely do.

Buying off shelf for conversions is, for all intents and purposes, hobby work, not something youíd sell on the market.

Even with the expertise of auto giants, off shelf components means that you canít differentiate your brand from others. If youíre going to give same performance and range as another brand, whatís the USP of buying your EV? Why would I not buy another brand?

Tesla has such good range and performance because they donít buy off shelf. Same could be said for something like OLED displays from Samsung, the processors designed by apple for iPhone and Mac, and so on.

Itís what differentiates them from crowd. Further, the buying from third party increases your costs ó sure you have to invest it on your own R&D otherwise, but that R&D is going to pay itself back by giving your product a USP.

We all know how pricey EV conversions are in todayís time, Chinese parts or not. If you wanted to convert your Nexon to electric, youíll be paying at least ₹1-1.5L more than buying a Nexon EV straight from dealer and still wonít get subsidy, and other monetary benefits.
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Old 13th October 2021, 13:29   #26
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
EV tech is so simple that anybody with the necessary capital can jump into the game. How else do you explain so many new players entering into EV production? Even mobile phone companies are getting into EV.

You don't even have to have the expertise in-house, you can buy all the necessary components and expertise from specialized suppliers. There are engineering firms who will design the
I completely disagree with this statement as I have been working in this field with startups and OEMs for a while now.

It is true that it is much simpler than ICE, but it's not as easy as it seems. And of course, a prototype can be made within a month, but making a mass-produced EV without niggles takes lots of experience.

There are plenty of here and there tech giants running to make EVs (still with all that money, apple was got rejected at all major OEMs) because they think it is easy. But developing the technology from the lab to industrial mass production takes lots of skills and experience which neither Maruti nor their technology advisor Toyota doesn't have on EV.

I accede 100% with Sresth comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shresth_EV View Post
Iíve said this before, and will reiterate here :

Just because new players with fat pockets are doing it, it doesnít mean everyone or anyone is going to succeed.
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Old 13th October 2021, 13:39   #27
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post

To address this issue Suzuki, Toshiba and Denso have formed a JV to manufacture Li-ion batteries in India. They are going to be making the actual cells and not just assembling a battery pack from imported cells.
Winning the EV war is all about cost control of the most expensive component -- the battery pack. MSIL seems to be on the right track.
This announcement was some time back. They have categorically said they're not thinking of EVs till 2025!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Electromotive View Post
EV tech is so simple that anybody with the necessary capital can jump into the game. How else do you explain so many new players entering into EV production? Even mobile phone companies are getting into EV.

You don't even have to have the expertise in-house, you can buy all the necessary components and expertise from specialized suppliers. There are engineering firms who will design the ...
No they cannot!

For us couch warriors it might seem so but any kind of business that involves mass manufacturing has it's own complications, let alone EVs. Mobile phone companies specialise in manufacturing hi tech goods in scale. So when you say 'even' mobile phone companies, it seems like you think they run a very rudimentary business. That is not correct.
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Old 13th October 2021, 13:58   #28
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

Maruti Suzuki will wait until EVs will be repairable by roadside mechanics as that time they will be having battery modules,BMS, inverters ,induction winding etc at their dispose . Till then it's a wait and watch for them and then Mr. R.C.Bhargava will proclaim the most wise words of wisdom " I told you so ".
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Old 13th October 2021, 14:00   #29
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Default re: Why is Maruti so allergic to Electric Cars?

Is there anything Maruti is not allergic to? Except Mileage, Maruti is allergic to everything: Electric Vehicles, Safety, Features, etc. The only area where they can beat anyone is weight reduction. That is why they have the slogan: Kam Se Kaam Banega.
Remember what they did when they couldn't develop a Diesel engine? They got it from others. That's their plan. Why will they bother spending money on R&D when they can buy it easily when the time comes?
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Old 13th October 2021, 14:03   #30
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I too do not agree EV tech is simple plug and play, for a start-up 2W bringing all the electronics is easy without any innovation, making 4W EVs is a different game. The tech is changing at rapid pace, if you don't know how to design the cooling channels how are they expected to efficiently make EVs.

That's where MS could fail, if Tata learns to make EVs faster and efficiently than MS. Also, if MS does not make long term battery contracts, they fail to find enough batteries.

"Tesla, but also the many new Chinese manufacturers, produce cheaper and faster. The quality of their vehicles is getting better and better and has now reached European standards."

"A Tesla 3 is built in ten hours, more than three times as fast as a VW ID.3 in Zwickau."

https://www.businessinsider.de/wirts...zu-bestehen-a/
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