[COMMUTER]

Originally Posted by Early_Adopter

So, I wonder if the Range Anxiety is for real, especially in city driving conditions?

There is no way of avoiding the anxiety if the distance of the highway drive is going to be more than half the minimum range(under max load, steep gradient, higher speed, involving frequent braking) of the battery cars. Given the fickleness of the range of battery cars while being affected by the gradient, load, speed, wind direction, etc., the requirements to make the highway drive in a battery car just as peaceful as in a regular car is unachievable.

To make the highway journey in a battery car just as viable and peaceful as it would be in a regular car, the range must increase to three times that of a regular car's while getting the charging time reduced and keep the battery degradation to the negligible minimum for 15 years. This would shoot up the costs of the battery cars to stratospheric levels thus further confining them to the garages of the privileged.

The majority of car owners are single vehicle owners who expect their vehicle to be both useful in the city and reliable on the highway. An overwhelmingly major portion amongst them will be those using their two wheeler for most of the intracity chores and commutes while sparing their 4 wheeler for the highway runs. Without the constant battery drain of the remote locking and security sensors on the cars needing a mandatory startup every week, most of them would be perfectly happy with using the cars exclusively for highways.

Those who can avoid using their car for long drives and take to flying or find hiring ICE vehicles at will to be financially viable after having dumped a huge amount in to a battery car are the rarest of the rare. Given that level of fund flow, almost all the car enthusiasts would be perfectly happy to own a powerful 'aspirational' car for the highway trips while having a beater for the intracity chores.

There is no way to sidestep the hard truths.

- The infrastructure itself is stretched to an extent where there is a huge investment required to barely sustain the functionality in a few years. This makes the sheer number of charging stations an unviable proposition which, if forced upon people, will make the costs of using a battery car baloon past that of a regular car's.

Originally Posted by Early_Adopter

Currently, most EV car owners are based in metros and large cities where the charging infrastructure (both public and private) is quite adequate. Given the current prices of electricity tariff for charging the cars, one incurs anywhere between Rs. 1 to Rs. 2 per kilometre, compared to Rs. 7 to Rs 10 per kilometre on ICE cars. That means, some variations in the ranges within the city limits does not pinch the pocket for EV owners when compared to the ICE car owners.

- Cost advantage between regular cars and battery cars is a product of discrimination in taxation and will evaporate once the government decides to treat the battery cars as any other car when it comes to taxing the car and the fuel. That the batteries are being imported from China, world's sole supplier, will make the supply more volatile, as they did with the chips, thus further increasing the cost and disrupting the availability.

- The power distribution infrastructure, inspite of being formidable, is still a far cry from making one just as comfortable in relying on it throughout a highway drive as one would in the comforts of a city.

Originally Posted by Early_Adopter

IMHO, a subtle shift in the narrative will go a long way in shaping the way the whole ecosystem develops which is at a nascent stage right now.

The 'advantages'' of the new 'ecosystem' are being pushed via 'narratives' by mighty corporations motivated by profit as opposed to the supposed well being of the masses.

[gthang]

Are EV charging ports cross brand compatible?

Can the existing charging stations charge any brand of EV?

Cheers

[Early_Adopter]

Originally Posted by gthang

Are EV charging ports cross brand compatible?

Can the existing charging stations charge any brand of EV?

Cheers

Predominantly, there are two 3 types of connectors in vogue, the most popular one being CCS-2 connector. Then there's Chademo connector and Bharat DC Connector.

The current range of 4 wheeler EVs offered by Hyundai, Tata and Tata and the European high end EVs that have been recently launched are all compatible with CCS-2 chargers, which are offered as part of public fast charging stations.

Cheers

[rajshenoy]

Not an EV owner here but I have been on the fence for a while now and monitoring the progress. Highway Anxiety is real deal and unless we find any breakthrough solution, for me(and urban class) these could be the options in the near future

1. Two car strategy - EV for weekday office runs and a petrol car for long distance touring(for the joy of driving)
2. Hybrid car - something like a Camry(too bulky for city usage though) which can be frugal and also run on petrol on long drives. Sadly no one seem to promote this. This is my preference for this decade

I think pure EV would only make sense if it can offer real world daily range of say 600km for my highway trips as well

Other concerns I have are on battery heating, longevity and potential safety hazard(phones bursting on planes)

A pure city EV car can be compact and a range of 150-200km should be more than sufficient for daily usage. Key here is compact dimensions for city usage.

[Early_Adopter]

Originally Posted by COMMUTER

Cost advantage between regular cars and battery cars is a product of discrimination in taxation and will evaporate once the government decides to treat the battery cars as any other car when it comes to taxing the car and the fuel. That the batteries are being imported from China, world's sole supplier, will make the supply more volatile, as they did with the chips, thus further increasing the cost and disrupting the availability.

That's a very interesting insight and thanks for bringing it up. Petrol and Diesel are taxed heavily by both the Central and the State Governments and fuel taxes is one of the main sources of income for the governments.

So, the fuel cost advantage that EVs enjoy today may eventually evaporate - as the number of EVs keep increasing. The Govt doesn't charge GST on power right now, but, it is no guarantee that they may add either GST or other forms of taxes on power consumed by EVs at a later date.

The Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) calculations for owning an EV are already delicately balanced. The lower GST on the EV cars, the lower power prices, the FAME II subsidies offered directly to the electric vehicle manufacturers part of which are then passed onto the customers, the subsidies offered by the state governments, the lower or nil road taxes on the EVs - all these end up slightly compensating for higher initial costs on the EVs and that too only when the daily average commute is beyond a certain threshold.

As the battery technology evolves, the cost of batteries may come down, but all the other factors may increase the costs drastically, making the ownership of EVs less attractive for the masses.

Eventually, the market dynamics will play out and for a long time, the ICE vehicles and the EVs may coexist.

Cheers

[Shivam]

Originally Posted by alpha1

Why don't manufacturers add a small ICE engine (say 10 bhp) in the electric vehicle that allows it to take care of emergencies - at least till the EV charging infra is well in place in India. The cost of adding all this would be less than 50K INR

This reminds of the viral video of a Tesla owner keeping a small genset in the boot and always charging using that.

For EV manufacturers, adding a smaller ICE kills their sole purpose of getting rid of the same, if that becomes the life saver. Will be more of a catch 22!

[ritesh_44]

Originally Posted by vishwasvr

About a year ago I had a chance to drive a friend's Tata Nexon EV. He had asked me to drop it off at his house after getting some work done. I was very excited to drive the car as it was the first time I had driven an electric car. I already have fairly palpable range anxiety and I wanted to test my nerves on the EV.

The battery range showed around 170 km and I only had to drive about 8-9 km. I knew this wouldn't be an issue at all but boy was I wrong!

Traffic at the famed Silk Bored (no pun intended) was crawling at a snail's pace and I obviously was very light footed on the gas (again, no pun intended) thinking I'll be frugal et al.

I noticed the range kept dropping at regular intervals and as expected I began shitting bricks! I turned off the AC, headlights etc thinking it'll save the battery to some extent.

I somehow managed to reach my friend's place almost 35 minutes later and the range showed 45 km!

Man that was such a rush! I guess I'm still not ready for an EV!

It might be showing instantaneous value and it's less because you were stuck in traffic, actual percentage left might give better information.

[Early_Adopter]

Originally Posted by Shivam

This reminds of the viral video of a Tesla owner keeping a small genset in the boot and always charging using that

This is one of the most likely scenarios especially in our context.

As the charger infra develops along the Indian highways, we also know that the power supply is not as reliable in rural areas. This means, even if the chargers are installed, they may not get the reliable power supply. So, what is the backup to these chargers, when the local power supply fails?

Diesel Generator?

This might be one of the most ironical situations that might develop - charging one's EV car with a charger powered by a Diesel Generator

It would be prudent for the policy makers to mandate the installation of of solar power system of adequate capacity when installing EV chargers on the highways! The Solar power should be the prime one and the backup power should be the electric grid.

[Shivam]

Originally Posted by Early_Adopter

T

This might be one of the most ironical situations that might develop - charging one's EV car with a charger powered by a Diesel Generator

Not sure if I could post the link here, but you can try this in youtube search "Guy runs his TESLA with gasoline "

[PetaWatt]

Originally Posted by Early_Adopter

In summary, shouldn't the narrative shift from Range Anxiety to Highway Charging Anxiety?

Cheers

Suppose our target is to have 30% of total vehicles on road to be EV by 2025. Did anyone estimate how much extra electricity will be needed by 2025? Did anyone plan from where will we get this extra electricity, from conventional sources or from non-conventional sources? How and where Li-ion batteries will be recycled?

Well, that’s my anxiety!

[KennethSamuel]

In my mind Range Anxiety automatically translates to Highway Range Anxiety. I have never been so much worried about the range of an EV in the City (I stay in Hyderabad) however it is the out of station visits that makes me worried. I regularly go on about 250 kms on weekly basis and about once in a month I make around 350-400 kms trip to my in-laws place in Maharashtra.

The moment I think about the long trips that I do, this anxiety creeps in. In my ICE, travelling any distance is a pleasurable experience where as even with the meticulous planning (with the charging and stops worked out) there will be a small worry in the background saying, 'What if....". I think it should be enough to rob me out of the all the enjoyment and pleasure.

This was one of the main reason, I have decided to wait before I switch to EV. Charging infrastructure, especially on the highways matter. The solution to this, I think lies in a 2 pronged approach:

1. The OEM should strive to increase the real-world range of the EVs. I saw a video of Tesla doing 750 miles (more than 1100 kms) on a battery that was independently developed. Video below:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWj2YCdoc9A

2. We should have decent infrastructure on highways. I have read that 22000 petrol stations across are going to have charging station, and kudos to that (link to the news)

But still I feel, for the EVs considering the charging time, it should be the eateries like the Dhabas, cafes that should be equipped with the charging stations. When a person is travelling with co-passenger (esp with family) this would be more helpful. Also, I actually appreciate that, in Tesla you can play games on your infotainment while your car is getting charged. That is something that is well thought out. Maybe our Desi manufacturers should pick up on that.

We're getting there, albeit in a slower pace. As of 2022, I don't see any EV replacing my ICE workhorse.

[lina]

As an EV owner who has completed a few long distance trips, let me throw in a few cents.

I have done bangalore-pondicherry and bangalore -thrissur quite comfortably in my ZS EV in the last couple of months. Infact the Thrissur trip was with a full car (wife+kid+parents+luggage). I did not taken any more time than I used to in my ICE car, nor did I have to do stunts like "switching off the AC".

The EV infra in TN and KL on National highways is rather decent. There are quite a few chargers conveniently placed at restaurants (thanks to Zeon and ReLux). At all locations where I stopped, my family needed more time to charge than my car.

The key thing to note here is that I am not someone on a mission to reach Thrissur in 7 hours. I am a sedate driver who would do 85-90 regardless of which car I drive. I also am not someone who does too many roadtrips outside of major towns or cities. Bulk of my driving is within Bangalore. A few road trips such as the above (usually 500-600km) couple of times a year. There are a lot of people like me who could easily switch to EVs full time.

The only major difference wrt driving is the loss in spontaneity. I cant do a road trip without planning. So long as I am not trying to climb up a random hill 200km away, I should be able to go to almost all places within 500km from Bangalore using my EV with some planning. I have used my EV so much more than my ICE car in these last few months (almost 8k from August, my previous ICE car had done 55k in 10 years). The fuel savings alone are more than enough to justify the slight inconvenience. In my case there was almost 0 extra cost upfront as I bought a ZS EV at 21.8L OTR. My other options were Kushaq/Taigun/Creta/Seltos automatic top ends all of which are 22L. This car is way more fun(smoothness/acceleration) and safe(EURO NCAP 5 stars vs not-tested and 3 stars) compared to my other options at that time. Every km I travel in my ZS, I save almost 6-7 rupees.

The infra is improving at a drastic pace. Almost every week, either Zeon, ReLux or Tata are adding chargers in South India. If MG releases the 70kWh ZS here, it will be a game changer. There is a huge void to be filled between 25L and 1Cr and I hope someone fills that soon.

[Bibendum90949]

Originally Posted by Lobogris

However you are correct that the EVs provide better range at 90kmph than 120.

Originally Posted by Lobogris

I don’t see why it would take three extra hours to cover 600kms in an EV. You would surely need a break for lunch or dinner and another one or two for tea or coffee. It would take at least an hour to park, order your food, use the toilet etc

Guess you've answered this yourself. Higher the speed, lesser the range. Even if one club their breaks and charging, the lesser average speed would mean you'll take more time to destination.

In an hour, even if you cover just 15 kms lesser than an ICE car, it translates to 165 kms lesser in a 11 hour journey. It means the journey is stretched by 3 hours assuming the actual distance covered in an hour is ~50 km which is most likely the case in an interstate trip owing to traffic and road conditions. This was the premise of my opinion.

[electric_eel]

After driving a BeV like the Nexon EV for some time, one usually gets quite comfortable with estimating the SoC (State of Charge) at the end of a trip. However if there is an elevation gain (high range driving) this would often be wrong by a significant margin. Here I give a quick way to calculate the SoC which seems to work for me for one such high range trip (Palakkad-Seetharkundu). Since it is a back of the envelope calculation I will round the constants to make the calculation easier.

Total trip (one way ) = 60 Kms.
Typical efficiency I get on level drive = 120 Wh / km
Battery capacity of Nexon EV (max) = 40 KWh

This would mean if I were to travel 60 kms at this rate I would end up with a SoC of 82%
But there is an elevation gain of about 1000 m (I have rounded for calculation). If I assume that the Nexon EV with 5 passengers weigh 2000 Kg (2 tons) I would put in 2000 * 10 * 1000 (m * g * h) Joules of additional work which turns out to be about 5.5 KwH.

Total energy therefore is 60 * 120 / 1000 (normal driving) + 5.5 = 12.7 KwH.

Expected SoC at Seetharkund = (40 - 12.7)/ 40 * 100 = 68% approx.

I had 64% battery at Seetharkundu so the estimate was more more less correct. I achieve 125 Wh/Km for the entire trip (What I lost in the climb I gained to some extent while I returned).

Admittedly, a single trip is not good enough to validate this claim. Unfortunately I do not have too much data to validate and hence publishing the formula. If you have done such high range trip please try using this formula and see if it is working for you and let me know in the comments.

[electric_eel]

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

[/b]


Guess you've answered this yourself. Higher the speed, lesser the range. Even if one club their breaks and charging, the lesser average speed would mean you'll take more time to destination.

In an hour, even if you cover just 15 kms lesser than an ICE car, it translates to 165 kms lesser in a 11 hour journey. It means the journey is stretched by 3 hours assuming the actual distance covered in an hour is ~50 km which is most likely the case in an interstate trip owing to traffic and road conditions. This was the premise of my opinion.

Just a point though. If you have to do 15 Kmph more on an average means you will have to drive at much much higher max speed which is often illegal or scary or both. Check what is the difference in average speed when you drive at 80-90 vs when you drive at 100-110 (It will not be 20 kmph). At least on Kerala high ways I do not think I would dare to go beyond 90 kmph even if the MVD has given a free hand to me (whether ICE/EV).
My high way trips where I have driven at what I consider 80-90 kmph (usually people only remember the top speeds) the average speed is much less (some where close to 60).