[Hayek]

If I were the OP, I would look at doing one of two things:
1) Pay the handling charge if I were comfortable with what I am getting for the effective On the Road Price, and felt that was better than the alternatives I have from other brands; or
2) Switch to some other brand

When there is a monopoly dealer in your city, it does not make sense to pick a fight before you have bought your car - you are going to depend on that dealer for service and starting with negative goodwill makes no sense in that case

Why do small manufacturers like Renault have monopoly dealers? Because their volumes are not enough to attract dealers without giving them that benefit. So they can either pay the dealers a higher commission or let the dealers get what they can from customers, through handling charges, padded service bills etc.

To those citing the Court order - Lots of us assume that because a Court gives a ruling in one case, the same applies in every other case. But that is true only if the facts and circumstances are identical - so in practice, each person has to fight his own case and prove that the facts and circumstances justify the same outcome. Most of us lack the time and money to do that. So assuming that we will get a court order on a ₹11000 matter is just living in a fool’s paradise.

What would I do in this case? Here it is obvious that even before a sale, any kind of appeal to Renault is falling on deaf ears. Can you imagine what would happen after the sale?

To my mind the choice is obvious. But perhaps my thinking would have been different if I had been a fan of this particular Renault model.

[bharatbits]

I am willing to bet OP has given up on buying the Duster from Renault after this bitter turn of events. Not just OP but many other prospective customers in and around Bangalore too will end up buying the competitors offerings. Clearly, one man's loss is another man's gain.

[landcruiser123]

Originally Posted by livetodrive

How do I deal with dealers who consider themselves above the law of the land?

Personally, I'd walk away and go to Hyundai/Kia as peace of mind is paramount.

If this is your pre-sales experience, imagine how bad your post sales experience would be [*** Touchwood *** ] if you need to claim warranty for any major repair? However, if you want the Duster, you've to either fight it or give in. Ask yourself- are you willing to spend money, time, and effort to recover this INR 11,033 plus interest and legal fees?

This is a dealer vs Renault India issue to sort out the handling charges and work out a formula to bake it into the ex-showroom prices.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by Samir Choudhry

Further, the buyers of motor vehicles (“Buyers”) were advised to not comply with the demand for any such charges.

Pursuant to the same, a PIL was filed before the Delhi High Court pertaining to the continued practice of Dealers imposing unauthorized charges on Buyers.

In C Rajaram, Advocate &Ors. v GNCT of Delhi &Ors. : 190 (2012) DLT 569, the High Court of Delhi held:

“The undertakings aforesaid obtained by the respondents No. 1&2 Licensing Authority from the dealers though being widely worded, cannot come in the way of the dealers charging the extras for extra services rendered in connection with sale and which the respondents No. 1&2 are not empowered to control / regulate. Notice may also be taken of the fact that in today's day of aggressive marketing of vehicles and multifarious choices available to the purchasers / consumers, the vehicle dealers giving discounts are not unknown (as also evident from the respondents No. 1&2 making a provision (supra) to that effect) and it is generally seen that the purchasers of vehicles are in a bargaining position with the dealers. If the vehicle dealers are providing any extras in terms of services, goods, fuel etc. to the purchasers and the purchasers agree to pay therefore, in the absence of any law to control the same, this Court cannot issue any direction with respect thereto. We accordingly dispose of this writ petition with the direction that in the event of the respondents No. 1&2 Transport Department / GNCTD receiving any complaint of any vehicle dealer charging anything extra / commission from the vehicle purchaser for providing the services of registration, the respondents No. 1&2 shall enquire into the said complaint and if find any merit therein, shall take action in accordance with law against such vehicle dealers.”

In the absence of explicit legislation, the High Court of Delhi did not provide the necessary clarification sought. Thus while not expressly prohibiting the collection of any excess logistics charges, the Hon’ble High Court of Delhi did not ratify such collection or empower the Dealers to do the same.

Apologies that I'm writing via the phone now otherwise I would've given a detailed translation of the usual circuitous legal language as above, and a big thanks to Samir for providing us the legal framework of this issue thus far. Hope everyone reads it completely as well.

Now the summary of the above is that while "handling" or "logistics" charges aren't legal and can be fought in court strictly in the sense that they are handling/logistics charges, the subsequent C Rajaram, Advocate &Ors. v GNCT of Delhi &Ors. : 190 (2012) DLT 569 case says that in a business transaction, the customer is already blessed with the option of bargaining for discounts to which most businesses oblige as well, and any incidental costs that the business incurs in the process of sale to a customer like "fuel", "standard freebies" etc, which very much exist, can be legally enforced by said business and for which the customer has no right to reject or protest against, thereof, in the presence of a free-market where choice of dealers and/or brands exist.

Thus comes my point that even in the existence of 99% clarity in a dispute, there is still 1% scope for arguments which makes it a grey area. This dispute is far less clear and if anyone wants a detailed analysis I'll be happy to do the same.

While my previous post might've seemed very biased against the buyer, if one can read between the lines they'd understand I did the math :

- Customer wants the Duster, ONLY.
- Only one Renault dealer in the city.
- Dealer not budging on transport charges.
- Dealer willing to give alternate discounts close to or equal to transport charges.

Let's face it now, the shortest distance from the means to the end, as far as this case goes, is what I wrote. Everything else is a rocky road, more so in prospect of the fact that service and maintenance too is to be done at the same dealership.

[drmohitg]

I think we are all missing a critical point here. We continue to say that the dealer is off setting the handling charges by offering discount elsewhere. But this is a false statement.

The dealer offered a deal to the customer which included various discounts. The final break up had an item called "Handling charges" amounting to little over 10k. Now the dealer isn't offering an additional 10k off from the offer which would kind of negate the handling charges. Hence please do not say that he is offering discount elsewhere to negate these charges. He offered a deal and then is asking for illegal charges. If he offers an additional discount to the OP equalling the handling charges, the OP would also accept. But this is not the case.

This is like saying that when real cost of Insurance is 20k for a vehicle, the dealer will quote 1L and later say I am offering you 80k discount. It doesn't work like that.

[Bagheera]

I would like to commend OP on taking the stand to not pay illegal charges. I feel that this comes from a moral standpoint similar to that of bribery being inacceptable. Hence, most of the suggestions to accept the discounts and adjust feels moot.

From the phone call, It is evident that OP was willing to book the car at the stated price with no further negotiations and haggling the insurance premium. The sales person only offered the discount once OP asked to remove the handling charges in order to close the deal. Also the person on phone call didn't offer any concrete discount and was all sales talk, he mentioned we will get best possible insurance premium (duh?) and no discounts are possible for Duster turbo-petrol. He also seemed to be caught unaware by the discount offered from the sales guy.

For the people saying that dealership is a business and it has many expenses, That's why there's margins existing on the ex-showroom price, insurance premium, accessories, warranty and service packages. There is no need for ambiguous charges. As OP states in the call, ex-showroom price should include all these charges including PDI, detailing etc before delivery.

To OP, my suggestion would be to consider what the after sales would be if pre sales experience is like this. You would need to vote with the wallet here.

[Samir Choudhry]

As of now and to the best of our understanding, the Supreme Court has explicitly stated:-

1) “Having heard learned counsel for the petitioners, and having perused the impugned order passed by the High Court, we find no justification whatsoever to interfere with the same..”

2) The Karnataka High Court has also declined from interfering in this matter and left it to the Transport Department ( their jurisdiction is restricted to registration charges )

Under these circumstances, I think, for a lot of BHPians to state that Dealers are cheats, dealers are rouges, dealers look for any way to make money is quite uncalled for. Most of us believe in doing business in an ethical manner. Let me give you an example. Only last week, on account of accidentally damaging a customer's 2018 Duster while it was at our service centre, we replaced it with a brand new one (doesn’t take much to figure that we took a huge hit on that, but we felt that while repair was possible, this was the right thing to do).

Yes , while we do try and ensure that we satisfy all our customers, it’s not always possible. Does that mean we stop trying? Absolutely not.

[livetodrive]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

I am simply aghast at some members justifying the handling charges here. Has everyone gone insane? Sorry for the strong language but this IS NOT A GREY AREA as being labelled by some. It is as black and white as it can get in the real world. Why? Because there is a SC ruling on this matter which says that these charges are illegal. I simply do not get how some members are still managing to call these charges as justifiable? It is Fraud regardless of whether it is for Rs. 1 or Rs. 1 crore.

Yes. We are not convinced either that its a grey area.As mentioned in my initial post, its not how big or small the amount is, but about what is right and wrong. We both will not give in to their demands, if that means we can never buy a Duster, so be it.

Originally Posted by bharatbits

Also, who decides the handling charges? How is this amount of Rs 11,033 arrived at? Is it same at all Renault showrooms across India or in any particular city? Does Renault India fix them slyly? Or does the dealership decide on this and fix whatever it wants? The Rs 11033 till the units digit, it's been presented as if it has been arrived after some calculation so the customer may not pay much attention to it and think that it's indeed a legit charge. Clearly, trying to mislead a customer.
.

Exactly. If it was a price fixed by the authorities or the manufacturer, I wont question. However, I checked with 4 dealers across India and handling charges differ from state to state. Kolkata charges 6k while Hyd charges 12k.

Originally Posted by Mynameis

Height of ADAMANCY!

Listened to the audio. High praises to you and your wife for sticking with what is right.

Only reason I can think of is Monopoly. But then SCI is also only one, in the whole of India. This dealer needs to get a taste of its own medicine! I am sure you won't back off after the purchase. This dealer certainly needs a stick from the law.

Even if it was not a SCI order, generally dealers remove this component after haggling a bit. But this dealer is certainly above SCI, rather the dealer owner thinks so!

This dealer has already lost lots of customers, and has thus lost lacs of rupees as Handling charges. Instead of just Rs 11000.
And btw, very good decision to still buy this car. In the end, Car remains the same, irrespective of dealer attitude.

What a rubbish business sense to be ready to lose a customer, who is ready to book the car next morning if this "illegal" charge is waived off! I am sure this dealer would not have thought that one will go to consumer court for a meagre 11k, and I think he still thinks so, otherwise he would have certainly waived off this 11k.

I am going to share this with all my known people who are not on TBHP.

Thank you so much for helping us spread this further. I wish somewhere someone from Renault will take a note of it, and may step in. We will wait till this weekend and if Renault still doesnt waive this off, we have decided not to go ahead with Duster. No matter how much we both loved the TD, but we cant bog down in front of someone's goonism.

Originally Posted by bharatbits

I am willing to bet OP has given up on buying the Duster from Renault after this bitter turn of events. Not just OP but many other prospective customers in and around Bangalore too will end up buying the competitors offerings. Clearly, one man's loss is another man's gain.

Yes. If they do not waive off the handling charges by this weekend, we will look for options outside Renault. After multiple mails to CC from my wife,and highlighting on Twitter, last evening Trident Renault rep called my wife and offered an attractive cash discount of 5k But the handling charges remain.

Originally Posted by GBX

Unpopular opinion, but is it worth this much effort to argue over a lineitem which amounts to less than 1% of the price?

Wouldn't it be more prudent to look at the overall discount and not worry how the dealer accounts it in their books?

Its not about the amount, its about morals. Can I be forced to pay something which is not legal. If someone can afford a 14-15 lacs car without loan, 11k is definitely not a big amount. When they called last evening, we clearly communicated that we are not looking for any discount but we dont wish to see this component in the invoice.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

I feel so happy when I see people stand up and speak, specially when you know the amount and time you will have to spend running around court cases etc. Salute you and your wife for standing up and speak.

Do let us know the outcome of this issue.

Spike

Thank you. All credit goes to my wife for supporting me. She has highlighted it on their twitter page and tagged RenaultGroup last evening. We have decided to let go off Renault if these charges are not waived off, irrespective of what discounts they offer.
We also know we will have to face this for our next car too. Not only Renault dealers, but every dealer has this on their price list. It might take some effort even there to get it waived off, but am sure there are less stubborn dealers in Bangalore

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

Hi livetodrive,

You have done the absolute right thing in walking away. I admire the fact that you have stood for the principle. If you can pay 10 lacs for a car then you can very well pay 11k as well and that fact should not be lost on anybody.

If there is any ambiguity regarding the handling charges then you have every right to ask about the details and if not satisfied, you can very well walk away. A recent incident happened in Guwahati as well regarding the handling charges where the DCT suspended the trade license of an auto dealer.

https://www.rushlane.com/jeep-compas...-12364719.html

You have done the right thing in not adding to the corruption that already exists through the dealership. In Calcutta, handling charges are usually waived off and same thing happened recently when my friend got a new car from Ford. That one needs to cite a Supreme Court ruling to get the point across tells you the story where the dealerships are losing customers.

I hope customers understand the value of money and walk away from such dealerships who are opaque in their dealings. Thank you for letting us know about your story and you did the right thing, don’t you believe otherwise at all.

Thank you. Yes we both loved the car and visited the dealer with the intention to book even before the TD. But if they do not waive off these charges, we are not buying a Renault. We might not be able to change the corrupt system but the least we can do is not add on to it.The amount doesn't matter here anymore neither the discounts are of any relevance. We have 2 choices - give in to their illogical demands or move to slightly more ethical dealer. We choose the latter.

[click]

Originally Posted by Samir Choudhry

Under these circumstances, I think for a lot of BHP’s to state that Dealers are cheats , Dealers are rouges , Dealers look at any way to make money is quite uncalled for .. most of us believe in doing business in an ethical manner , let me give you an example , only last week on account of accidentally damaging a customers 2018 Duster while it was in our service centre , we replaced it with a brand new one ( doesn’t take much to figure that we took a huge hit on that , but we felt that while repair was possible , this was the right thing to do )

Yes , while we do try and ensure that we satisfy al our customers , it’s always not possible , does that mean we stop trying .. absolutely not.

The way you have written this reads as if you did a favour on the customer by replacing the car (or a part in the car, not clear) for an accident that happened in your service center. That is not extra service but rather normal business practice and I am assuming you have insurance to take care of that. If not, you need to get one.

Truth is that most dealers will inflate the quotation and only when customer digs and negotiates, will budge a little. You might call it the way to do business, we call it scrupulous intentions - the point of view changes depending on which way the money is flowing. But most Tbhp members will agree, we don't mind paying a little more if the approach is honest and there is no 'jhol' involved. Unfortunately that's rare.

[Samir Choudhry]

The fact is, when any customer leaves a car for service, it is left at their risk and in the unfortunate case of a mishap, the customer has to make a claim through their respective insurance companies (if you go for a surgery, you sign a liability waiver form)

We replaced the entire car and not a few damaged body parts because we felt that under the circumstances it was the right thing to do, at the cost of repeating myself I would once again like to say that Dealers are not cheats / rouges / out to make a quick buck, we try and run ethical businesses (since I do know most of Dealers in Bangalore, I can say that with confidence)

Trident has sold close to 250,000 cars and I am sure we would not have reached here if our customers did not trust us.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by Samir Choudhry

Yes , while we do try and ensure that we satisfy al our customers , it’s always not possible , does that mean we stop trying .. absolutely not.

Are you from Trident Renault Bangalore? If so you should've been explicit about that in your opening post, now your post seems like a defense of your eccentric policies and while I can accept a BHPians view wholeheartedly whatever it may be, your first post sorely lacks any background information, and now we are entitled to ask why at all must the potential customer as above ask for waiver of logistics charges and be met with outright refusal but instead be offered with more discount (as I understood it) in other ways?

[rdst_1]

I am someone who actually prefers the price quoted to me have this complete breakdown instead of just including it in the ex-showroom price. I am pretty sure that there must be some handling and logistic charges involved for the dealer when they buy the cars from the manufacturers.

Similar to the analogy given of restaurants who also have the cooking charges involved in the production of the dish. Almost everywhere, the price on the menu will be just a single amount.

But what if, some restaurant decides to give a breakdown tomorrow and list them as raw material charges and cooking charges (Please see that I am mentioning charges and not costs). Doesn't mean they are unscrupulous or cheats, does it.

From the OP, it seems that all Renault dealers are saying that they can't waive off the handling charges. Even ones who are not from the same group. Also, someone else mentioned that Renault have decided to keep the Ex-showroom price same across the country instead of different prices in different areas like other companies are doing.

Every single commodity has handling and logistic costs but they just include it in the selling price but that's not true for everyone. Especially in B2B transactions I have many times seen freight charges added by companies to the invoice.

So personally I believe that Renault seem to have shot themselves in the foot by going for this approach despite not doing anything unscrupulous.

[Bagheera]

Originally Posted by Samir Choudhry

Yes , while we do try and ensure that we satisfy al our customers , it’s always not possible , does that mean we stop trying .. absolutely not.

Originally Posted by dark.knight

Are you from Trident Renault Bangalore?

If both of the above are true, hope you can provide a breakup of the ambiguous "handling" charges to the customer and there by prove that they are in fact valid charges for extra services provided by dealer and as stated by you doesn't come under SC rule. Knowing that the charges are valid and legal could be more digestible to the concerned customer. This could help clear the air and have an amicable deal with the customer.

Related, recently we had a thread where Tata hiked the ex-showroom prices by 14.5k for some models probably to redress dealers issues with the recent court ruling. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4866626 (Tata Nexon, Altroz prices increased from August 10, 2020)
Not sure how welcome this approach would be as this impacts the sticker price and can also result in increased taxation in onroad prices.

[soumobakshi]

Originally Posted by Samir Choudhry

we try and run ethical businesses ( since I do know most of Dealers in Bangalore, I can say that with confidence )

Trident has sold close to 250,000 cars and I am sure we would not have reached here if our customers did not trust us.

I am not sure if I am interacting with Mr. Samir Choudhry the Managing Director of Trident, but your ID has an uncanny resemblance.

As per the stated dispute on collecting Handling Charges since the dealer incurring additional expenses for PDI and shifting of vehicle from Warehouse (stockyard) to Showroom, etc. Isn't it a fact that all these are included in Ex-showroom price? Then why charge the customer extra ? Or ask the customer to take delivery from Warehouse itself!

You bringing up the issue of replacing a customer's car is surely commendable and kudos to Trident for the same , but then it's not what the OP can relate to during this present situation.

[click]

If you are the Director of Trident then I applaud you to come here. But you are losing a golden chance by putting a general defence of dealer ethics rather than addressing the issue at hand and talking about the OP post.

This might be one of those rare moments where you can put down your side of the story, give us insight about logistics, give us a breakdown of the costs, so we as a buyer can empathise. But your current approach will not help you or the disgruntled party.

Also Let's not compare surgery to car service because if we go to compare rate of error, qc and other services between the two, dealerships will always lose out on the argument.

Originally Posted by Samir Choudhry

Trident has sold close to 250,000 cars and I am sure we would not have reached here if our customers did not trust us.

This may have to something to do with you being the only Renault dealer in the area more than the trust factor.