[C300]

Originally Posted by honeybee

Or if the mods think this is digressing from the original topic, let's have this thread closed and create a separate thread for Mr. Shridhar's posts.

+1. What Mr. Sridhar has presented is an invaluable treasure of information and is of great value to all bhpians. I wont call it Tata bashing. These insights can only be acquired through years of hands on experience.
My humble request to Mr. Sridhar to continue posting his thoughts on past/present breed of cars from all manufacturers. A separate thread can be created for this.

[sachinayak]

Originally Posted by rrsteer

Now some people as found out by Tanveer are not even ready to admit the wrong but are plainly interested in putting their silly points across to others.

While some are not letting others even understand the basis of how or why this wrong is happening and want to stop a good discussion by needlessly branding it as Tata bashing or unwarranted criticism of home grown manufacturers !!

The above lines kind of summarize where this thread is heading to. Tata bashing is the norm, if you think otherwise it is a silly point.

With great regards to Mr. Sridhar's valuable insights into some issues at TML, everyone needs to realize it is eventually a "vendor's" view of issues at an "ex-customer", and there is a definite scope of bias.

Just to elaborate further, if I had to vent out any displeasure at Toyota and I was anyways related to the industry, it would be very easy for me to post on the Etios thread that the door beadings were a known design issue reported to Toyota India well in advance but given the cost issues was struck down. That thread could have gone the same way this thread is.

Again, I am not trying to point fingers at anyone of deliberately misleading the group, but please understand that it is very easy to lead the group into thinking negatively. A glass half full to one is a glass half empty to another and both are correct in their views. Unless we really see both sides of the story, this is mere gossip, that we want to perceive as reality.

If we want to turn a blind eye to improvements in quality over time at TML and want to infer that TML has no focus on quality, so be it. If we cannot see a quality difference between an Indica and a Vista, an Indigo and a Manza, a Safari and an Aria, so be it. If we want to turn a blind eye into facts stated on TeamBHP about the amount of testing on the Vista, Manza and Aria, so be it. Swimming against the tide is never easy, i guess.

[supremeBaleno]

^^^ If his views were all -ve, he could be accused of bias and I am sure tbhp-ians are intelligent enough to make out biased views. But he has also pointed out the good things at TML and the times when good QC practices were encouraged. So, it is not like a vendor using the forum to bash his ex-customer.

[moralfibre]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Sumantran was the first ousider who tried to break the sloppy quality & half baked product development culture at the firm. ......
....

On the other hand Ravi Kant embarked on a mindless cost cutting exercise.

So you had 2 people competing for the post of MD. - One who was showing immediate results & another who was doing things for the long term good but increasing current pain. Guess who won??

I just remembered that I had seen both these names in another single post. Here it is.

And some more resignations from Tata Motors that made into the forum. Link.

[safari_lover]

This thread's been very informative about how and why TaMo products have the issues.

However, the products quoted are all TaMo's 1st gen products - viz Indica, Safari, etc.

Now going by the ownership threads/discussions of the new TaMo products like Manza, Aria and the Vista, it is apparent that they don't exhibit such issues. Doesn't it indicate that they have been actively working on to improve and the results are being seen?

It's all good to be aware and be informed about the issues and the causes, but it is also important to see if there's something done about it in the newer products.

The next big launch from TaMo is of the Merlin. I am expecting it to be totally problem free, if it isn't then I am with you guys to TaMo.

Just my 2 paisas

[VeluM]

This thread has deviated quite a bit from the warehouse it was turning into. I think this is a forum with more discipline than others, which is why it maintains such a following.

Mr. Sridhar, please ignore the rants from both parties and provide us more information. What I understood is that Tata's brilliant designs have been (effectively) sabotaged by the production department insisting on cutting costs (as mentioned earlier, and aptly) mindlessly.

That being the case, and also the fact that we have a TM executive watching the thread, more information is good. Hopefully they'll wake up and understand that Quality is the need of the hour, and since the Vista/Manza are already in the middle of the competition price-wise, they need to be there quality wise as well (if not already).

[sridhar-v]

Originally Posted by GTO

Guys,

This has been an incredibly insightful discussion thus far. On a related note, some of us German car owners are extremely unhappy with the unreliable nature of our European cars. If anyone can share such detailed inputs into the problems that Europeans are facing WRT reliability, please post here. Thanks

EDIT : Here is another thread where inputs are welcome.

I also agree with GTO that there is a need to carry on this discussion in a specialised thread. So I am posting a series of articles on QC in the thread suggested.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2516256

I will continue to answer questions you raise on this thread but please do visit the posts in the thread above.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by safari_lover

Now going by the ownership threads/discussions of the new TaMo products like Manza, Aria and the Vista, it is apparent that they don't exhibit such issues. Doesn't it indicate that they have been actively working on to improve and the results are being seen?Just my 2 paisas

Indeed an invaluable 2paise worth of opinion. Yes, since the newer-gen Tata's are getting better with fewer issues, looks like they have made great strides in the quality department for which credit has to be given. Hopefully they work towards getting better at it and the Merlin would be a niggle-free product.

Originally Posted by sachinayak

While this may work for you it may not work for others. BTW, i do agree overall with what you are trying to convey, but gone are days when you could be under-equipped on features (unless of course you are a Toyota/Honda) and sell

Well, I am glad you got the drift. Features are good, but what is the point if they dont work - and it it not just Tata, I read about Mercs also having issues with features not working. I would rather have a car with lesser features, but where everything works as expected.

Originally Posted by Latheesh

We Indians are happy with stripped down version of International models and are ready to pay extra premium for the badge.

And when we are provided options, we Indians also show them who is the boss. We made Honda drop prices of City and Jazz, remember ? And till few months back, they were getting away with whatever price they charged and a price-cut for Honda was inconceivable. So, it is not that we are happy with what we get. Just that at one point we did not have options, now with Vento, New Verna etc, Honda had to rework strategy.

[kiku007]

Shocking revelations there! Thanks for sharing.

Kind of answers the questions in my mind for years:
"Why is TATA still in the process of getting there and not there yet wrt product quality?"
"When will I be able to refer a TATA car to a friend without a disclaimer on the quality, fit and finish etc. ?"

Strict quality control consumes time and money. BUT the benefits in the long run far outweigh the initial investment. Hope someone bells the cat in TML soon.

[subodh_mallya]

Originally Posted by sridhar-v

Well I can give you one example to show how the others work:-

The Tata Safari & Ford Endeavour have basically the same rear axle assly. Only difference is in a couple of brackets, hypoid ratio & the brake drum size.

Thank you for your insights sir, as a group, I have had very bad experiences with the Tatas, but I must clarify here that the experiences were due to the lethargy of the staff rather than the intent of the group.

Right from a faulty cable for the seat release mechanism on the Sierra to a faulty turbo charger on our safari, not to mention complete at the A$$, they have been consistent in delivering bad products. But my dad was a Tata loyalist, till he felt that buying a Tata product was more of a donation to the company rather than any value add for the customer.'

Please keep these insights coming.

[BaCkSeAtDrIVeR]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

1. Tata vehicles broadly are VFM products.
2. Tata vehicles have historically not focused on quality and are not at par with competition (on quality).
3. Tata vehicles have improved tremendously (in quality) over multiple iterations.
4. Tata Motors have in general responded to feedback (if we look at the big picture).
5. Tata Motors A-S-S sucks.

Please confine this to cars.

In particular, beg to disagree with #2 and #3 in HCV segment.

Originally Posted by Steeroid

There was a time

Hi. Nice to see you back on this forum. Every white safari I see on the road makes me think of you.

I believe the quoted reply from TML was a mature reaction from the company to a situation where a person (who is a a vendor and therefore an 'interested' person subject to various biases) has taken it upon himself to use a thread discussing the CMD's departure to compare it by name to several others in the same industry and point out only it's flaws.

errr... I am afraid I did not get the chronology right. Was TML's responding to sridhar's post? I think they wre reiterating their public position on the resignation.

For me, I wa a bit shocked or rather, disoriented - I hate it when something changes in a company where I am investing in and there was no hint of it in the public domain.

People posting here, and those reading this thread should please remember that Forster did not replace anybody when he came in. (or is my research on TML the corporate entity so bad??) A new post / level / designation was created.

Right now, he has changed from a exec. to non-exec position. Probably that is transitioning (means he will sever ties in a few months). The resignation may be because he has not been able to change the way things the way he wants to. Or he did not do what was expected to. Or, it also may mean he has some health or family problems. We need not look into this further. But as auto lovers we are justified in discussing the things the way we did so far. (probably, some posts were way off for this forum, and some were way off for this thread, but that is expected in a public forum).

TML has demonstrated to the world at large that it has several strengths - it is not a public sector undertaking running off taxes, nor is it one of the organizations that have thrived due to (purchased) government patronage of it's products.

Agree with spirit of what is stated, but - just a gentle reminder - the state RTCs had to choose between AL and TELCO. But the point is very valid.

On a personal note, I have owned a TML product for about 4 years and 100k punishing kms after which it was sold. That vehicle is missed every time I get back home, and regardless of the mob mentality exhibited in a place where I used to be a regular I will have no hesitation in putting my $ on another TML product in future.

Nice to hear that. But what about that Jag in DBX?

On a final note, TML has been in existence before Forster, Ravikant, X, Y or Z. Companies fo that size do not depend on individuals. But success of companies and products does depend on getting the right person, allowing him / her to put in place proper policies, procedures, processes and thinking and then, allowing that formula to continue for a few years.

For TML, something has been missing in almost all products / cycles. The estate and sierra did not have the legal / system backing (they hacked the rules to introduce those vehicles).

The first indica had teething problems.

Its second iteration had branding / positioning problems.

Sumo 1 version was very good, but not refined. (resembled that tractor pulling an LPG bullet in its ad in every sense).

Version 2 aka victa evicted Sumo from the taxi segment.

Sumo Grande was neither a personal car, not a taxi.

Nano does seem to have component level problems. And too bad top bosses at TML failed to see Mamata's lack of mamta for that project in W. B. If I was JRD, I would have fired Ratan from the post he occupies now for that fiasco in WB. Seriously.

The sedans, manufacture of which were controlled by people who win praises in this thread, were comparatively less problematic.

All this points out to one issue - there is something inadequate at TML top. And they need to something real fast about it. Now, is that Tata bashing?

[Yeldo]

I am an small (or tiny?) investor in Tata Motors too, and as somebody interested in automobiles, I follow their products too, and has bought the Safari, the Sumo (original), and the Indica in the past. Apart from the quality issues that we all know very well about, the company's marketing department is an utter failure in proper communication. Just look at the way Mahindra (I'm a small time shareholder there too) make a big fuss about anything they launch. The Bolero face-lift created ripples, but the Grande face-lift last week hardly got noticed. Now the Merlin is coming up, but there is hardly any anticipation. But look at the XUV500 which has left many of us rubbing our palms in anticipation. Even that dinosaur called the Thar, Mahindra made such a noise, and I see people spending 6l+ on the top end version, while I seldom see new Grande or Aria or Safari.

[honeybee]

Yeldo, the Tatas did launch a marketing campaign for the Aria, and they do still carry ads for the Safari (make your own road) in print as well. I remember before the Indica eV2 was actually launched, the Dadar railway bridge carried the 25kmpl catchline on almost all the advertising boards.

Though in my personal opinion the Aria ads suck, both of them.

[Yeldo]

honeybee, I talked about the effectiveness of the campaigns. Not that they did not advertise, but it did not hit the bull's eye. Whatever interest those campaigns produced soon fizzled out due to poor product quality and in some cases, nonsensical pricing.

Mahindra on the other hand succeeded in creating hype around their products which BTW, many on this Forum describe as mediocre. But they trickily mould their buyers' expectations to suit their products, and keep buyer interest alive through constant upgrades and campaigns like off- road adventures.

[andromeda]

Most of the recent vehicles(Vista, Manza, Aria, Merlin, etc..) launched by Tata have had dramatic quality improvements, but the Tata brand-recall in the minds of public is that of a VFM/Taxi manufacturer. This is pretty much the reason for their recent dismal/declining sales figures. I believe Tata should have created a new brand and launched their recent vehicles under that brand (something like what Toyota did with Lexus). It's better late than never !