[Nissan1180]

Originally Posted by GTO

Please no! There is enough motorsport opportunity in India and God knows, Indian motorsport can use all the support it can get. If Tata wants to make a statement, do so in Indian motorsport, not international. Just like they are with the Prima truck racing championship.

The Truck racing event is a very good initiative indeed.
What I find surprising is that the company had created an advertisement of the Sumo Gold featuring Narayan Kartikiyen racing the vehicle against a pair of sprinters on the streets of an Indian hill station (looked like Lavasa)! I mean, that was not a very appropriate combination (the car and the driver).
Let us hope that they do something for nurturing the culture of experiencing a good driving machine in India. It need not be restricted to events at the BIC. Local events, which would enable the end customer to experience the potential of the vehicle on a safe, legal track, could help people connect to the brand in a better manner.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by humyum

You lot have distorted my entire meaning of the post into Tata bashing.
You want a Bolt RS KYA ? Or would you chose a Swift RS ? or I20 RS ?

All I am saying is, get a better platform aka a sporty looking car with dynamics which are biased towards handling and launch a high powered version of it.

Without knowing what the proposed bolt is capable of, you seem to have written it off. Naturally people are writing against your post. Swift is not a virtue of handling by the way...

[Car Architect]

Originally Posted by humyum

You lot have distorted my entire meaning of the post into Tata bashing.
You want a Bolt RS KYA ? Or would you chose a Swift RS ? or I20 RS ?

All I am saying is, get a better platform aka a sporty looking car with dynamics which are biased towards handling and launch a high powered version of it.

We didn't distort the actual meaning of your posts. You wrote off a car without even test driving it or understanding what it is capable off and that's why people posted against you. Don't accuse the members of the forum without any proper evidences.

[v_safari]

Great news from the TATA house.
I'm in to buy one if this project comes to reality. I'm already looking in for a new car, and am very confused between a FAST SEDAN (CRUZE) / You won't understand it's a JEEP / FAST HATCH (POLO TSI).
But if TATA comes up with the BOLT Sports version, I'm all in to buy it. Bolt is already quite nice and it's INDIAN.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Without knowing what the proposed bolt is capable of, you seem to have written it off. Naturally people are writing against your post. Swift is not a virtue of handling by the way...

Originally Posted by Car Architect

We didn't distort the actual meaning of your posts. You wrote off a car without even test driving it or understanding what it is capable off and that's why people posted against you. Don't accuse the members of the forum without any proper evidences.

What makes you say I have not driven the current Bolt ? Or is it only launched in the area where you lot stay ? I said the current Bolt does not appeal to me in anyway which will automatically make me not be inquisitive about checking out the RS version of it when it comes because it just does not have the looks to go with that much power or have the RS tag. Secondly I am sick and tired of seeing everything rotate around an Indica, so is rest of India. It's like launching an Ambassador Facelift with a 120 bhp engine for me. If that pisses you off, deal with it.

I am writing what I mean in plain and simple words, you bunch keep harping Swift has rattles Swift has thin tin foils, when all I meant was 'Look this formula appeals to the Indian buyer and that one does not'. Sales figures are the bible here. Bolt sold 2500 odd in January 2015, first month of its launch, which saw the I 20 selling 9500 odd and Swift 10 thousand odd units after MONTHS and years of their launch.

Launch a more powerful version of any of these cars and see how the sales chart fly, it's a no brainier.

Please talk from a realistic perspective.

I want to give Tata a chance and so will many of the buyers if you give them something fresh. Reinventing something time in and time out which has not worked since a long time for a personal car buyer does not make a convincing case.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by humyum

I am writing what I mean in plain and simple words, you bunch keep harping Swift has rattles Swift has thin tin foils, when all I meant was 'Look this formula appeals to the Indian buyer and that one does not'. Sales figures are the bible here. Bolt sold 2500 odd in January 2015, first month of its launch, which saw the I 20 selling 9500 odd and Swift 10 thousand odd units after MONTHS and years of their launch.

Sales figures don't really say if a car's good or bad. It just means that it's a great package. The Swift is a great package. If you look at the sales figures modelwise and find that the base model sells the most, does it mean that the base model is the best of the lot? It doesn't. So, stop judging by sales figures alone.

Technically, the new gen i20 is inferior to the old one because it sacrifices unique safety features like rear disc brakes and six airbags for looks. I mean the car looks like it should be wearing an Audi or Alfa Romeo or any other premuim brand, and it's priced like a Hyundai. Of course it's a success. But that doesn't erase the fact that it's not as safe as the earlier model.

The fact that the best looking hatches sell the most should make it clear that the India market prefers looks over anything else. If reliability/service costs was the prime factor, the Toyotas would be the hot sellers. If it was handling or dynamics, the Fiats and the Fords would take the crown. If it was drivability, the Micra would be the top seller. Smoothest engines? Honda has that locked.

The Swift/i20 is simply a good compromise of great looks, great FE and pickup (due to light (flimsy) bodies) and familiar ASCs (not the best, it's just that there's a lot of them, so if you don't like the one you have, you can always find another)

I want to give Tata a chance and so will many of the buyers if you give them something fresh. Reinventing something time in and time out which has not worked since a long time for a personal car buyer does not make a convincing case.

In your original post, you clearly stated that as a Maruti owner, you were repelled by anything from Tata. That, to me, does not sound like an unbiased, well meaning comment from someone who "wants to give Tata a chance"

What makes you say I have not driven the current Bolt ? Or is it only launched in the area where you lot stay ? I said the current Bolt does not appeal to me in anyway which will automatically make me not be inquisitive about checking out the RS version of it when it comes because it just does not have the looks to go with that much power or have the RS tag. Secondly I am sick and tired of seeing everything rotate around an Indica, so is rest of India. It's like launching an Ambassador Facelift with a 120 bhp engine for me. If that pisses you off, deal with it.

Launch a more powerful version of any of these cars and see how the sales chart fly, it's a no brainier.

Please talk from a realistic perspective.

Sure, Let's be realistic. Let's all take a look at the Swift RS.

Suzuki's idea of a Swift RS version for India was black wheelcaps (not even alloys) and blue skirts on a standard Swift VXi. Not even a set of fatter tyres and alloys, let alone stiffer shocks or differently tuned engine.

Thus, as much as I'd really love to see these guys "Launch a more powerful version of any of these cars and see how the sales chart fly", experience shows us that they won't launch a powerful version, or even a mildly tweaked one. They will, however, strap on some black plastic, raise the suspension and tell you it's now a crossover.

And yet, as a Maruti owner, you are repelled when Tata makes an effort to launch a genuine performance brand. The only other manufacturers (I can think of) who have made a worthy hot hatches are Toyota with their Liva Sportivo and VW with the Polo GT. I think that anyone who knows what RS stands for was repelled by Suzuki India's idea of RS.

I think we should appreciate what Tata is trying to do here. After all, they are one of the few manufacturers who have actually offered higher performance engine options on their cars (Vista 90 and Vista D90). Hopefully, this time they'll do the whole package and sell a car that we really want to drive and own.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by humyum

I want to give Tata a chance and so will many of the buyers if you give them something fresh. Reinventing something time in and time out which has not worked since a long time for a personal car buyer does not make a convincing case.

From you concoction of words and rabid rants I seem to think you are arriving at the conclusion that Tata recycles their platforms while maruti somehow delivers cutting edge technology.

Really?!

A company that thrived on building and recycling the '84 model Alto, all the way till 2011! That's 27 years! Even the present alto 800 is a 17 year old model!

The Wagon R sold here is based on the IInd gen model launched internationally in 2000, the Ritz in 2008, the list goes on...

While everyone is a fan of one brand or the other, simply ranting on about another brand based on one's own myopia is foolish to say the least. Also let people talk for themselves, no one has asked you to represent the whole country.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Sales figures don't really say if a car's good or bad. It just means that it's a great package. The Swift is a great package. If you look at the sales figures modelwise and find that the base model sells the most, does it mean that the base model is the best of the lot? It doesn't. So, stop judging by sales figures alone.

Sales figures say what a country wants and what is trending in a country. How did you come up with the 'base model' selling more theory ? Any links to prove that ?

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Technically, the new gen i20 is inferior to the old one because it sacrifices unique safety features like rear disc brakes and six airbags for looks. I mean the car looks like it should be wearing an Audi or Alfa Romeo or any other premuim brand, and it's priced like a Hyundai. Of course it's a success. But that doesn't erase the fact that it's not as safe as the earlier model.

Air bags yes, but who told you absence of a rear disc brake in a 90 bhp diesel car is actually a lesser safe car than the one with a 'rear disc brake'?
Drive the car first and check out the official team-bhp review too. 70% of the braking is done by the front brakes and if they are discs and effective, it's good enough. Secondly, whatever Hyundai did looks to be working for it and that's what matters to a company. A monthly sales of 10 thousand I20's is a lot of catching up they have done to the competition aka Maruti. Tata's have neither done any catching up, neither does it look like they know the nerve of the market.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

The fact that the best looking hatches sell the most should make it clear that the India market prefers looks over anything else. If reliability/service costs was the prime factor, the Toyotas would be the hot sellers. If it was handling or dynamics, the Fiats and the Fords would take the crown. If it was drivability, the Micra would be the top seller. Smoothest engines? Honda has that locked.

Well, wasn't that clear long time back too ?

Originally Posted by vivekgk

In your original post, you clearly stated that as a Maruti owner, you were repelled by anything from Tata. That, to me, does not sound like an unbiased, well meaning comment from someone who "wants to give Tata a chance"

I said I was repelled by the BOLT because it's an Indica look alike. That is unbiased as it can get. Sales figures show how India treats the Indica gene too.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Sure, Let's be realistic. Let's all take a look at the Swift RS.

It looks disgusting, no two ways about it. When I meant RS, I meant the Swift Sports. A 130 bhp competitor which is available in other countries against the TATA BOLT's 120 bhp which they plan to launch.

.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

I think we should appreciate what Tata is trying to do here. After all, they are one of the few manufacturers who have actually offered higher performance engine options on their cars (Vista 90 and Vista D90). Hopefully, this time they'll do the whole package and sell a car that we really want to drive and own.

I did appreciate TATA for trying it's hand at the performance brand.

Sorry the D90 Vista's with their bodykits and spoilers look as pathetic as the Swift RS.

Originally Posted by shortbread

From you concoction of words and rabid rants I seem to think you are arriving at the conclusion that Tata recycles their platforms while maruti somehow delivers cutting edge technology.

Really?!

A company that thrived on building and recycling the '84 model Alto, all the way till 2011! That's 27 years! Even the present alto 800 is a 17 year old model!

The Wagon R sold here is based on the IInd gen model launched internationally in 2000, the Ritz in 2008, the list goes on...

While everyone is a fan of one brand or the other, simply ranting on about another brand based on one's own myopia is foolish to say the least. Also let people talk for themselves, no one has asked you to represent the whole country.

They kept making those because people kept buying those. Almost 20 thousand a month. If they had not worked, Maruti would have come up with something else. Launching same +/- versions of the same car which are not selling in the first place is foolish IMO.

Secondly, I am representing the sales numbers which represent the sales in the country, I don't know why that pisses you up so much ? Let me add some 0's and 1's to the Tata's one so that you calm down.

Anyway, I am out of this. It's going in round and round circles.

[aravind.anand]

I really like the concept of a 120 bhp hatch, with stiffer springs and 17 inch alloys. That too, when this is made in India, I will definitely give it a try to see if it fits my requirement. I love the interiors of the Bolt, but the exteriors are quite tall and that is something I find quite hard to accept. I will definitely give the car a try when the performance variant gets launched though.

To sum it up - Tata is going in the right path ( finally! ) and other car makers like Fiat and Ford who make driver oriented cars really should take note of this novel attempt !

[Car Architect]

Originally Posted by humyum

What makes you say I have not driven the current Bolt ? Or is it only launched in the area where you lot stay ? I said the current Bolt does not appeal to me in anyway which will automatically make me not be inquisitive about checking out the RS version of it when it comes because it just does not have the looks to go with that much power or have the RS tag.

So you effectively mean that power is nothing without looks.Everybody doesn't get a chance to rip off design like Maruti Suzuki, the brand that you swear by.

Originally Posted by humyum

Secondly I am sick and tired of seeing everything rotate around an Indica, so is rest of India. It's like launching an Ambassador Facelift with a 120 bhp engine for me. If that pisses you off, deal with it.

Poor analogy.

Originally Posted by humyum

I am writing what I mean in plain and simple words, you bunch keep harping Swift has rattles Swift has thin tin foils, when all I meant was 'Look this formula appeals to the Indian buyer and that one does not'. Sales figures are the bible here. Bolt sold 2500 odd in January 2015, first month of its launch, which saw the I 20 selling 9500 odd and Swift 10 thousand odd units after MONTHS and years of their launch.

Again sales doesn't show the competence of any car. Lets take your diesel rocket swift, other than the copy cat design and good handling with decent performance what does the car has, to justify the humongous sales?? Please don't bring the A.S.S into it. Let talk only about cars.

It has the most compromises of any premium hatchbacks sold in India.so is this what the market wants?? This is what is called herd mentality.

Originally Posted by humyum

Launch a more powerful version of any of these cars and see how the sales chart fly, it's a no brainier.

Please talk from a realistic perspective.

Any successful model with a added option will sell well, everyone knows that.

Originally Posted by humyum

I want to give Tata a chance and so will many of the buyers if you give them something fresh. Reinventing something time in and time out which has not worked since a long time for a personal car buyer does not make a convincing case.

Please don't speak on behalf of others, you don't know the mindset of people just by dissecting the sales figures.

Bolt makes a better case for itself when compared to swift as a family hatchback.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by humyum

Sales figures say what a country wants and what is trending in a country.

Air bags yes, but who told you absence of a rear disc brake in a 90 bhp diesel car is actually a lesser safe car than the one with a 'rear disc brake'?
Drive the car first and check out the official team-bhp review too. 70% of the braking is done by the front brakes and if they are discs and effective, it's good enough. Secondly, whatever Hyundai did looks to be working for it and that's what matters to a company. A monthly sales of 10 thousand I20's is a lot of catching up they have done to the competition aka Maruti. Tata's have neither done any catching up, neither does it look like they know the nerve of the market.

Now you're talking just like a marketing guy, not an enthusiast. Many of the cars that we love here, like the Baleno and the Palio, to name two, have never been commercial successes or runaway hits. If sales figures indicate the trend, that must mean that the Alto 800 is the best hatch in the country, because it outsells everything else.

If I were picking out my car by which one sells the most, I wouldn't be here. I could just look at what my neighbour is driving, or look at the sales figures in any financial publication, and make my decision.

I said I was repelled by the BOLT because it's an Indica look alike. That is unbiased as it can get. Sales figures show how India treats the Indica gene too.

Again, looks and sales. Nothing about performance, dynamics, interiors or anything. This is exactly what I and others have said, that you were writing off innovation before giving it a chance, purely based on looks alone.

It looks disgusting, no two ways about it. When I meant RS, I meant the Swift Sports. A 130 bhp competitor which is available in other countries against the TATA BOLT's 120 bhp which they plan to launch.

You're saying that just because there is a 130 bhp Swift out there, no other manufacturer should even try? Going by that, should every car maker who isn't selling the best selling car stop making them, and never ever think about competing?

I did appreciate TATA for trying it's hand at the performance brand, but Indica ke permutation combination se aage badhke bhi performance product launch kiya jaa sakta hai.

Sorry the D90 Vista's with their bodykits and spoilers look as pathetic as the Swift RS.

Again boss, the Swift RS was all about "looking sporty", while the D90 had a more powerful engine and stiffened suspension as well as a more driver oriented interior, to go with the optional plastic bits. That's right, the bodykit was an accessory, but the performance and improved handling was standard. And the D90 was a fantastic car that was sporty where it mattered.

They kept making those because people kept buying those. Almost 20 thousand a month. If they had not worked, Maruti would have come up with something else. Launching same +/- versions of the same car which are not selling in the first place is foolish IMO.

Secondly, I am representing the sales numbers which represent the sales in the country, I don't know why that pisses you up so much ? Let me add some 0's and 1's to the Tata's one so that you calm down.

Anyway, I am out of this. It's going in round and round circles.

Again, sales talk. Let's continue to make crap, because crap sells. Let's not innovate, let's just be content with the sales. That's great for a marketing guy, not for an enthusiast.

The one time Maruti made an 800 (5 speed) and an Alto (1.1 VX) that was actually fun to drive, they stopped making them so it wouldn't affect the sales of the next variant. That's why Maruti Suzuki scores low in my book, because they lack soul.

[arjab]

If TML finally makes up its mind and decides to launch a performance brand, it will be a step in the right direction.

It will inject a breath of fresh air in the mass market, "warm hatch" segment and TML possibly will get noticed by potential passenger car buyers who till date, never even had TML products on their shopping list.

Obviously, the performance brand needs to be managed well, the correct consumer "connect" has to be established before hankering after sales numbers.

Brand building, especially a new brand, and that too building a new auto sub brand can be a painfully long exercise, but done correctly, worth the expense.To be honest, TML marketing was always weak when it came to branding, positioning, segmenting and finally selling their cars.

Possibly, this time around, instead of making a hash of things, it would be prudent, if TML, ropes in some of the brilliant brand managers from its sister company, TITAN, who always did and still are doing a great job, managing the mother brand as well as numerous sub-brands.
Maybe it will be a good idea to outsource the entire sales and marketing of the performance brand to them.

If the new performance brand is managed well, TML stands to gain a fair chance in getting noticed as a maker of "desirable" motor vehicles and not merely a maker of humdrum econo'boxes.

Wish them all the best. At least someone, some car maker in India, is trying to create a performance niche! Cheers to that!

[Zappo]

Ok! Stop this now guys... Please stick to the subject of the thread. Anymore of this unnecessary side debates on Maruti versus Tata (this is not the thead for that by the farthest of imagination) and we will clean up this thread and lock it.

[balajisv]

Originally Posted by arjab

Possibly, this time around, instead of making a hash of things, it would be prudent, if TML, ropes in some of the brilliant brand managers from its sister company, TITAN, who always did and still are doing a great job, managing the mother brand as well as numerous sub-brands.
Maybe it will be a good idea to outsource the entire sales and marketing of the performance brand to them.

Good thinking there! I have always been a fan of Titan brand and it's ads. They create a strong connect and draws people towards it!

In addition to bringing the right performance product, if Tata Motors concentrates on branding and effective marketing , the entire passenger car section stands to gain immensely.

[ashwin489]

Its not THAT complicated. Just make your cars NOT look like the boringly ubiquitous Indica or your hideous Nano.

I understand that your multi-drive marketing gimmick may create a buzz in the feature-obsessed demographic. But, why do you need 3 different fancy forks to eat a stale chappathi?

That being said, throw in an automatic transmission to go with your 120 PS Bolt, and that will seriously be a game changer.