[shortbread]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Quite the opposite actually.

Most of the product development had been completed by Ford by the time TML bought JLR.

TML played it smart on the marketing and pricing front and made their gains there.

Nope you are wrong.

The XF was fully ready (essentialy a redone S-type) and the XJ (again a redo) and Evoque were on the last stages of testing, thats it. This is all the new product line up Ford handed over to Tata.

One of the biggest factors in JLR's turnaround was the massive investment TML pumped in from 2009 onwards. Considering the massive financial crisis, dwindling SUV sales then, a unhelpful Labour government lead by the incumbent Business secretary (the tool) Mandleson, Tata had every reason to withhold investment and proceed with a wait and watch scenario, similar to its former parents. Had they done that, JLR would still have been struggling today with an ageing line up and irrelevance in the luxury market.

TML was brave to take the aggressive approach and keep investing in JLR, to date in an excess of a staggering £10 billion! The luxury car market is not won over simply by throwing money on marketing and discounts, ask Ford they fell flat on their face with that strategy.

The post Tata motors acquisition models include The new Range Rover, RR Sport, Disco Sport, the F type and the upcoming new JLR family, XE, all new XF and an SUV for the first time the F-Pace. No, Ford did not create a comprehensive model line up and hand it gift wrapped to Tata.

Heck Ford has not ever created a car as complex as the RR L405 (the worlds first mono aluminium SUV chassis). The first L405 development prototypes were finished in early 2012, then converted to the L494 prototypr (for the RR Sport).All this was under Tata and its considerable investments.

Then comes the development of the new Modular Aluminium architecture that will be seen in the XE, new XF, F-pace, upcoming all new Evoque. Oh and the all new engine plant in Wolverhampton to produce the all new Ingenium range of Petrol and Diesel engines.

The new and operational Chinese plant and upcoming ones in Mexico and Slovakia. Such an expansion would only have been a dream under the former parent.

People easily forget the dichotomy Tata was in during JLR's struggles during 08, 09 and 2010 and the piling inventory. Most of the other mainstream carmakers would have thrown in the towel by then considering the massive debts and the huge investments needed to turn it around. At that moment Ford would have been laughing at TML's struggles......but the rest as they say is history.

[rohansachar]

Originally Posted by Prafful_Rathod

Turnaround of JLR can largely be attributed to Tata Motors. Yes JLR had the product portfolio, Brand, Heritage, but Tata Motors invested heavily in R&D at a time when both the brands were making Huge losses.

Consider Maruti Suzuki. Takeover got Maruti products added from the Suzuki stable.
Here, consider JLR. They're gaining nothing, TM is harping on their profits & technology to stay in the game. The only plus point I see TM did is explore more markets for them.

Originally Posted by n.devdath

TML played it smart on the marketing and pricing front and made their gains there.

Precisely!

[Prafful_Rathod]

Originally Posted by rohansachar

Consider Maruti Suzuki. Takeover got Maruti products added from the Suzuki stable.
Here, consider JLR. They're gaining nothing, TM is harping on their profits & technology to stay in the game. The only plus point I see TM did is explore more markets for them.

If that would have been the case Ford would not sell them at all to TML. Infact TML had divested some of its stake in other group cos at that time to pump in capital for JLR, plus 4000 crores plus through right issues. At the time when they tookover JLR, a global recession followed soon in 2008, and the situation was so bad that TML's total market capitalization had even gone below what they paid for JLR.

An old article in livemint can be referred.

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/Uh...LR-around.html

[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Quite the opposite actually.

Most of the product development had been completed by Ford by the time TML bought JLR.

TML played it smart on the marketing and pricing front and made their gains there.

I am sorry but I find the above assertion quite stupid. So by that logic all credit for successful maneuvering of any car company (or for that matter any product oriented company) through troubled or uncertain times lies on its engineers/product developers and not on the management.

On the other hand, it is deft management of resources and the ability to make the right decisions or optimal decisions given the constraints, over a period of time that determines in large part if an organization succeeds or fails. And that is what Tata brought to the table. And that is why boards all over the world pay top dollars to hire the best management team. And that is exactly why there is so much respect for Tata in UK : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...e-drivers.html

It is quite surprising and really sad, that such a remarkable feat achieved through complete ownership is being attributed to just smart marketing and pricing and the gains made thereof.

[dpkbehera]

From a layman's perspective Tata would be better off by following the below mentioned strategies i.e.
a)Nano AMT: This has a potential of becoming a great city car especially for specific segments like second car, woman and elderly. Just need to get the niggles sorted out.
b) SUV : This is a segment where the number of players is the least. The segment has the potential to give TM great returns. Just cannot understand why despite having JLR under their belt, they are not able to sort out the niggles.
c) Taxi Fleet : Indica/Vista/Indigo/Bolt should be pushed specifically for the Taxi Fleet segment.
d) Avoid the other segments like Hatchback,CS and Sedan altogether. These segments can be looked into later once the other segments do well. Zest is an exception. It is unbelievable that TM came out with such a nice car.

A tie up with Fiat can work quite well where Tata covers both the ends with Nano/Aria/Storme with Fiat taking care of the Hatchback,CS and Sedan in-between.

[shady_lawyer]

This fall from profitability has just gotten worse. The Q2 results are disappointing to say the least. This figures when combined with the latest sales figures, points to rather dark days for the manufacturer ahead.

Its reported a Rs. 430 Crore loss on the back of a loss of a staggering 5800 JLR vehicles in the China port blast. This by itself raises questions of these vehicles being covered by insurance.

However worryingly, this is a convenient fig leaf to hide the real issue, the fall in the passenger car volumes. The loss stands at Rs. 278 Crore, revenue is being generated by the heavy vehicle division and the PCV Unit has reported contraction in sales (though there is some confusion here since they have reported LCV+PCV figures).

There are some tough times ahead. Quite frankly T.M. Bosses must be frantic trying to figure out a way to turn this around. Two thoroughly competent products have as good as bombed. The pipeline does not hold something fresh (anyone remember the rumored JLR inspired SUV's). Our own "Kite" thread is fairly ambivalent as opposed to being "gung-ho" and "excited".
Fingers crossed, but I don't quite like the writing on the wall!

[nerd1200]

Little OT : Just came across this video depicting the size and influence of Tata Group of Companies in India and globally. Quite interesting!

https://youtu.be/ku6SAMsyHbo

[srishiva]

I think we should give due credit to Mr. Tata. I dont like their Indian lineup but he bought a troubled company and set it right. Whatever way it was achieved, its all to his credit.

I think we are being harsh on an fellow countryman which is nothing new in this country.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by shady_lawyer

There are some tough times ahead. Quite frankly T.M. Bosses must be frantic trying to figure out a way to turn this around. Two thoroughly competent products have as good as bombed. The pipeline does not hold something fresh (anyone remember the rumored JLR inspired SUV's). Our own "Kite" thread is fairly ambivalent as opposed to being "gung-ho" and "excited".
Fingers crossed, but I don't quite like the writing on the wall!

With the Pelican Project, Kite twins, Hexa, Nexon, Premium Hatch, Suvs based on Raptor and Harrier all in Line, I would say its too early to see the writing on the wall. The Writing is a Dot to me.

As for the Kite thread, The falcon (zest/bolt) thread was as "ambivalent" till the day the cars were unveiled at the Auto-expo (went on to be the TBHP COTY). I would wait till the cars are unveiled as of now we have only camo pics, artist renderings, speculated specifications and assumed prices. Unlike the Ecosport ,Creta, Figo, BRV, Jazz etc. which already were launched outside (price and feature list being the only speculation) , its pointless speculating on a car you know nothing about. Same goes for Mahindra S101. Apart from sightings and speculations people have nothing to discuss there. Not the right time to judge its popularity I would say.

[shady_lawyer]

Originally Posted by 400notout

The Writing is a Dot to me.

Well said. But I'd disagree with respect. Zest and Bolt aren't exactly flying out of the showrooms bar the one in Gujarat which tried to! The sales figures don't do justice to the competence of these products for example being the COTY hasn't exactly caused the sales chart to be on fire. The Zest and the Bolt outsell the Indica+Vista combo by a mere 60 units in the B2-C1 segments , where even Toyota never a strong player in this segment is now outselling Tata.

Further, the Sanand Plant is kept closed for close to 4 days a week due to the weak demand for the Nano-imposing an punishing capital and carrying cost upon TML.

The future products might hold promise but going by past experience I'd wait and watch!

[Amartya]

Since a lot of (virtual) ink has been spilled in this thread that has ranged in sentiment from cautious optimism to 'Tata Motors is doomed', I wish to share a tiny tidbit from an interview with Gerry McGovern (Land Rover's design director).

"Plus, back then the business was a completely different place. Now we’re owned and supported by Tata, we can take that long-view strategy, planning ahead. We know, and I know, what the next generation of Land Rovers is going to look like now."

This reply was in reference to a question about how the Evoque convertible came into being. I found this tidbit to be quite comforting and something to be proud of. Very few businesses have the wherewithal to invest and think truly long-term. I am optimistic that Tata Motors is one of them.

Reputations take a while to change. Tata Motors is trying to change and has made concrete moves. The overhauled Nano, the Bolt and the Zest are decent products (and they are trying to improve service and sales). Who knows, perhaps it's too late for them to become the top Indian manufacturer, but I am certain that a quarter (or even a year or two) of losses should not eliminate optimism about their future.

Source to the interview quoted above.

[400notout]

Originally Posted by shady_lawyer

Zest and Bolt aren't exactly flying out of the showrooms bar the one in Gujarat which tried to!

The sales figures don't do justice to the competence of these products

True. Tata has created a bad name for itself and it will take a lot till people aspire to buy a Tata again. But Despite having an old range,
Tatas' numbers in the past 2 years have not decreased as dramatically as say GM. They have been constantly flip-flopping between 9k to 13k units.

Unlike GM, atleast Tata is making attempts to regain lost market share. Zest/bolt is a step in the right direction and the Kite twins are interesting
because there is no direct competition to the celerio/wagon R. Also I would like to see how market will react to the reportedly cheapest compact sedan when the Kite CS comes out.

Whereas hyundai has a fresh stable, MS still makes a lot of volume selling the Old but constantly updated Wagon R, Swift/Dzire, and Alto. After the first gen Indica/Indigo,
Tata did take a quality leap with the Vista/Manza/Storme/Aria but poor customer feedback meant a lot of damage to the brand which passed on to the products too.
This meant now Tata need completely new design language and line-up to divert the customers from earlier experiences. The Zest/Bolt with all its modernisation was still a facelifted Vista.
The Revotron engine is a stop gap arrangement and a new all-aluminium 4 cyl engine is under development (rumored to be seen in the Nexon). The Hexa is a beefed up Aria.
These arrangements are their hope to survive till they produce All-new products. And it does not take much for a good new product to turn winner, just look at the Kwid.
So I feel it will take time, but Tata will slowly reclaim its space.

[sampat.sahoo]

Isn't it a shame that the company which owns Jaguar Land Rover is struggling to sell cars? It sells an average of 10k units a month. Whereas Mr. R C Bhargava parcels a little less than 10k Omnis only per month. None of its cars are listed in top 20 cars by sales volume, top gainers or top losers of teambhp's monthly sales report. Is there something wrong with their design? Are the engines not good? Is the marketing department not marketing? Is their after sales service down? Why has Revotron lost its boost pressure?

This thread is like our primary school Essay writing competition. The topic is:

If I was the boss of Tata Motors

My Answer:

If I am made the head of Tata motors, I will first send the entire design team to Arts and Craft classes. With their current skill set, they can't draw anything other than Indica. Ask them to draw an elephant, they will add a trunk to Indica. Ask them to draw a dog, they will add a tail to an Indica. Can you believe their premium SUV also looks like an Indica? I don't have anything personal against Indica. But why make another Indica when we already have an Indica. With new launches like Bolt, Zest, Kite, Zica and Hexa their designers had the liberty to draw something new. But no.

I am scared that the JLR design blokes might also get infected by this Indica fever. What if one of their designers fits the Jaguar XF with the Christmas tree tail lamp lifted straight from an Indica? I would say this would increase road fatalities. Instead of ROFL, drivers will start ROSL (Rolling On Steering Laughing). This by no means is acceptable by any Road Safety Organization. My decision of sending the unimaginative lot to a drawing class may seem grotesque and incomprehensible to many, but I am sure this will save lives.

[pamiboy]

Originally Posted by sampat.sahoo

If I am made the head of Tata motors, I will first send the entire design team to Arts and Craft classes. With their current skill set, they can't draw anything other than Indica. Ask them to draw an elephant, they will add a trunk to Indica. Ask them to draw a dog, they will add a tail to an Indica. Can you believe their premium SUV also looks like an Indica? I don't have anything personal against Indica. But why make another Indica when we already have an Indica. With new launches like Bolt, Zest, Kite, Zica and Hexa their designers had the liberty to draw something new. But no.

I am scared that the JLR design blokes might also get infected by this Indica fever. What if one of their designers fits the Jaguar XF with the Christmas tree tail lamp lifted straight from an Indica? I would say this would increase road fatalities. Instead of ROFL, drivers will start ROSL (Rolling On Steering Laughing). This by no means is acceptable by any Road Safety Organization. My decision of sending the unimaginative lot to a drawing class may seem grotesque and incomprehensible to many, but I am sure this will save lives.

Perfectly said Sampat. They need to completely do away with the design team and hire a totally different set of world class designers from worldwide talent pool. That's the only way they will get out of this design trend. Unless they radically change their thinking, things will not move in the right direction. So sad that this is one of the best Indian auto companies but acting like a pathetic old school company (think Hindustan motors).
One other major problem with Tata is their product turn around time. For every major automaker it is about 4-5 years but for Tata it is 10-15 years. They will keep flogging the dead horse for as much it can until there's nothing left of it. Let market share go to hell. As soon as a new product is released, others have the next generation design almost ready to be sealed. Tata will think about starting design work after 5 years when they realize that their car isn't selling as much as they wanted.

[praveen_n]

Originally Posted by sampat.sahoo

With new launches like Bolt, Zest, Kite, Zica and Hexa their designers had the liberty to draw something new. But no.

How is Kite/zica/Hexa similar to indica? They are new concepts and does not look like indica in anyway

Originally Posted by pamiboy

One other major problem with Tata is their product turn around time. For every major automaker it is about 4-5 years but for Tata it is 10-15 years. They will keep flogging the dead horse for as much it can until there's nothing left of it. Let market share go to hell. As soon as a new product is released, others have the next generation design almost ready to be sealed. Tata will think about starting design work after 5 years when they realize that their car isn't selling as much as they wanted.

All manufacturers in India do this (except may be for Hyundai)
Look at Maruti for instance : They had the old 800 until 2006 , alto is almost 15 yrs old and so is swift.