[satan]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Nobody is doubting the capabilities of the LC. But how many people will really drive these cars in the off road terrains in India?

2 things are against it:
1. Age. It's too old now. A new generation is overdue.

Not sure what you are even talking about. Please review the attachment below for details of New Generation safety and offroad features

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

2. Brand value. This is slightly subjective. But nobody will disagree that BMWs and Audis are the premium brands.

Premium brands no doubt with premium after sales service and parts prices too which is what they survive on in the Indian market atleast as none of the German vehicles are homologated for our Indian conditions of dust, roads and rain

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

The pricing in India is ridiculous.

[imp!]

Knowing Toyota arrogance is more than a match for the big Germans in India, I expect this to cost more than a GLS. I'm very happy and comfortable in my knowledge that if and when I spend that much on a car, it will not only have to drive well and be reliable but will also have to be comfortable and refined. Reliable it will be but refined it isn't. Even if I don't care about brand value, such cars are rarely bought based on one persons opinion and i guarantee you that ladies in the house will always go for a Bimmer or a Merc over a glorified LC. Now, I am not going to look at cars in this range for a long time, if ever, but that is the thought process that most traditional Indian households will go through.

If Toyota decided to act sensibly, keep the Innova at its current price levels, the Fortuner at 30-35 Lakhs, Prado to 40-45, LC to 50-60 and the Lexus to 70 L on road, then they will corner the Indian luxury SUV market. Make more money than they are with their current pricing strategies. That obviously will never happen.

[Turbanator]

Please review the attachment below for details of New Generation safety and offroad features

Thanks for the brochure.

The Land Cruiser on the other hand doesn't make a sound

Agree- completely

Shivjeet - can the different model imported at higher costs by Toyota be Sahara version ? is it possible for you to get this crosschecked with your contacts at dealership ?

[rosh_aveo1.4]

I never knew Lexus had a diesel version in the first place. Thought they only had petrol for that luxury segment.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by satan

Sorry GTO but I must disagree with you. In its present state, the 2016 LC 200 is the most advanced purpose built SUV ever.

Originally Posted by Shivjeet

It justifies the cost to me, and it can sell more than the GL's and Q7's if they start assembling it here.

There is no doubting its capability, reliability & quality. However:

- Equally, there's no doubting that it's overpriced. Compare the international pricing of German SUVs vs the Land Cruiser and see how they're played out in India. Customer doesn't care whether it's CKD or CBU - Toyota should & must assemble it here. The premium that Toyota is asking for its Land Cruiser in India is much, MUCH higher than other markets.

- How many owners take the Land Cruiser offroad? Less than 1%. I'm a big offroad enthusiast but if I owned a Land Cruiser, I'd definitely think twice before offroading in one. Reason = exorbitantly priced parts. When I offroad, I want to focus on accuracy & safety, and not be distracted by the prospects of damaging a 1 lakh rupee ORVM or 3 lakh rupee headlamp (both estimated).

- The Land Cruiser is OLD. The current generation is now 10 years old! In about the same period, we've seen three new generations of the S-Class & 7-Series (as an example).

[Vikram Arya]

J200 platform on which both Toyota Land cruiser & Lexus LX 570 are based is about 9 years old as has been mentioned previously by other contributors.

Lexus LX 570 is never cross shopped with BMW X5 or Audi Q7 as both of these are not full size SUVs but with Infinity QX 80, Cadillac Escalade, MB GL 450 (now GLS) & Range Rover Sport/Range Rover.

In the US market the price difference between TLC & LX 570 is barely $6,000 (basic price without any upgrades, tax etc.)

With TLC’s Indian price at already a stratospheric 1.4 Cr I don’t see how/why Toyota cannot/will not price is close to lets say 1.9 Cr & still get away with it.
Toyota would try to load it up to gills with all possible upgrades so as to create a substantive differentiation in terms of bling/contents & charge a hefty premium for it accordingly over TLC.

I’m glad Toyota is contemplating a V8 even if its diesel as anything less than a V8 would be considered pedestrian in this segment.

In a highly discerning market such as US, Lexus LX 570 has not been able to make any major headway largely owing to a cult following of the biggest seller that is Cadillac Escalade. Last year Lexus sold just 3,884 LX 570s in the United States, (Land Cruiser sales were even lower at 2,687). Cadillac sold 21,230 Escalades while Land Rover found homes for nearly 18,000 Range Rovers.

In India however it could be a different story owing to its novelty value & the fact that in this segment the overall size of the pie is so small with just two players (Mercedes Benz & Range Rover). At this price point I see very little rationale for settling for a TLC if LX 570 is priced below 2Cr. which in all probability it will be.

I believe what Lexus LX 570 has going for it is its novelty value & bullet proof reliability though these would seldom be driven outside of big cities; from sheer snob appeal standpoint I doubt if it can match the Range Rover though.

Any which ways, it is about time Toyota introduced Lexus in Indian luxury/premium sub segment as everyone who is anyone in this space is already here.

[Khushrav]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Now given the assessable value of this and comparing with LC200 , this is surely going to get over 2 Crore

I've often been confused with the various import duties and taxes that are applicable. Using this above example can someone help me with the on-road price of the vehicle (since this is CBU). I'll be interested in the % details as applicable for different engines or other variables.

[Turbanator]

've often been confused with the various import duties and taxes that are applicable. Using this above example can someone help me with the on-road price of the vehicle

On road will be difficult given the varying Road taxes in states, however, you can check enclosed sheet for approximate ex-showroom prices with calculation for LC.

some things to consider :

Assessable Value - Cost that we see on Zauba = Invoice of Exporter X Exchange rate of that month in INR e,g for something invoiced at USD 100 , assessable value will be 100 X68 = INR 6800

Now this transfer price of say Toyota Japan to Toyota India can be a fair selling price of that vehicle like what Toyota does or can be on Stock transfer prices based on Costs like what most of the German companies do. That's one of the reasons why landed costs of Toyota CBU's is more. This can be due to limited "say" of Toyota Indian management in the overall scheme of things at their HO or they just want to play very safe and avoid any litigations at the later date. I heard Mercedes is being probed for undervaluations but it will be very hard for anyone to question internal stock transfer rates as things are at the moment.

We then need to add Duties on Assessable value which can be as high as 215 % (This can be calculated online as well ), add shipping & insurance and you should have costs of Importer. Then add Profits of Importer , CST - 2 % on Importer to Dealer sales & then VAT 12,5-15 % when dealer bills to us the customer. Also factor overheads like transportation , insurance & Dealer Margins.

We can use Import assessable value of LC 200 & LX to have an approximate idea of Ex-Showroom price of around 2 crores for LX given Rs 50 Lac Assessable value of LX & around Rs 31 Lac for LC & Ex-Showroom price of Rs 1,35 Crore

With TLC’s Indian price at already a stratospheric 1.4 Cr I don’t see how/why Toyota can not/will not price is close to lets say 1.9 Cr & still get away with it.
Toyota would try to load it up to gills with all possible upgrades so as to create a substantive differentiation in terms of bling/contents & charge a hefty premium for it accordingly over TLC.

Yes, this is what they plan. LX will be fully loaded including rear entertainment. More like what we get here in Canada

In a highly discerning market such as US, Lexus LX 570 has not been able to make any major headway largely owing to a cult following of the biggest seller that is Cadillac Escalade. Last year Lexus sold just 3,884 LX 570s in the United States, (Land Cruiser sales were even lower at 2,687)

I think they have some production issues as well . At least that's what Lexus dealerships in Calgary told me last week. I was trying to upgrade mine GX but apparently, they won't have anything in stocks and most of their allocations are sold till around March - April 2017 & this information was common from both dealers in Calgary

[satan]

Originally Posted by GTO

There is no doubting its capability, reliability & quality. However:

- Equally, there's no doubting that it's overpriced. Compare the international pricing of German SUVs vs the Land Cruiser and see how they're played out in India. Customer doesn't care whether it's CKD or CBU - Toyota should & must assemble it here. The premium that Toyota is asking for its Land Cruiser in India is much, MUCH higher than other markets.

Agreed and more importantly the CKD vs. CBU discussion, specifically in the LC 200's case is more of a company decision. i may be wrong but this is the only model of Toyota whose production is still centralized in Japan for quality control reasons. Having said that its very likely that Toyota isnt offering a full blown version with all the bells and whistles to us in India knowing that India isnt really a market that will appreciate the qualities and features of the LC at the price it is quoting.

Originally Posted by GTO

How many owners take the Land Cruiser offroad? Less than 1%. I'm a big offroad enthusiast but if I owned a Land Cruiser, I'd definitely think twice before offroading in one. Reason = exorbitantly priced parts. When I offroad, I want to focus on accuracy & safety, and not be distracted by the prospects of damaging a 1 lakh rupee ORVM or 3 lakh rupee headlamp (both estimated).

Completely agree and in fact globally you'll see very very few people using an LC200 specifcally for hardcore mudplugging and offroading every weekend.

Originally Posted by GTO

The Land Cruiser is OLD. The current generation is now 10 years old! In about the same period, we've seen three new generations of the S-Class & 7-Series (as an example).

Firstly OLD isnt necessarily bad especially when feature by feature it is far superior to any of the newer and more upgraded models or cars or SUVs. Then I have a different view and don't think we can compare the LC to super luxury saloons whose very existence depends on how attractive, blingy and sexy they appear and perform over their predecessors or competition. The LC is not for that class of people where cars are status symbols (at least not outside of India). Where it sells the most (Australia, middle east and pockets of Eu and Russia) its bought by folks that need a capable, comfortable and super reliable vehicle that will transport them and their families to the back of beyond very comfortably and more importantly bring them home safely. Such a client base dont really care too much for hardcore design changes and new generation aerodynamic shapes as much as they do for proven capability and pedigree and they dont mind paying extra coin for that.

Having said that, when the first 200 came out back in 2008 it was'nt without its faults and shortcomings. In fact many wrote it off as a really poor successor to the 100 series it replaced specifically for its poor engine refinement where vibrations were felt thru the steering column and pedals at specific rpms, six gear not engaging etc. Links below

http://www.lcool.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5139

http://www.lcool.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5748

Yet, the 200 is now 8 years old, is selling steadily in its target markets and Toyota has been constantly improving the underpinnings, refining the engine and adding safety features in addition to making cosmetic changes to it. Drive a 2008 model and a 2016 model back to back and they are two different beasts despite the same body and engine.

[carmayogi]

What strikes me about this version of the Lexus is the shamefully low power output. This has been a Toyota trait for a while. Yes, I agree that driveability is important yada yada, but 268 hp/650 Nm from a 4.5 liter engine? That's just not even close to being up to date.

Just recently, we read the new Audi Q7 review that has 245hp/600 Nm from a 3.0 liter displacement. BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar/Land Rover are all between 250 and 260 hp and 550 to 650 Nm with 3.0 liter displacements. How Lexus can justify an entire 2 cylinders and 1500 cc displacement for zero power or torque update is ludicrous! The reason I'm being critical is that this vehicle will be priced above all the brands mentioned in my post - don't customers deserve the best tech at that price?

For reference, the Range Rover 4.4 V8 produces 334hp/700 Nm and the Audi 4.0 V8 in the SQ7 has a whopping 435 hp/900 Nm.

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by carmayogi

What strikes me about this version of the Lexus is the shamefully low power output. This has been a Toyota trait for a while. Yes, I agree that driveability is important yada yada, but 268 hp/650 Nm from a 4.5 liter engine? That's just not even close to being up to date.

Just recently, we read the new Audi Q7 review that has 245hp/600 Nm from a 3.0 liter displacement. BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar/Land Rover are all between 250 and 260 hp and 550 to 650 Nm with 3.0 liter displacements. How Lexus can justify an entire 2 cylinders and 1500 cc displacement for zero power or torque update is ludicrous! The reason I'm being critical is that this vehicle will be priced above all the brands mentioned in my post - don't customers deserve the best tech at that price?

For reference, the Range Rover 4.4 V8 produces 334hp/700 Nm and the Audi 4.0 V8 in the SQ7 has a whopping 435 hp/900 Nm.

Toyota knows their customer base very well.

The landcruiser buyer is different from a SQ7 buyer. In U.S they are mostly aging wealthy people who prioritizes reliability and usability above mad performance. This 4.5 V8 diesel must be tuned for maximum reliabilty and will probably outlast its owner before it gives up. I bet the SQ7 will be at the workshop on its 3rd birthday right after the standard warranty runs out.

But Lexus lx seems to be a contradiction. Clearly the mad predator styling suggest they are looking for younger buyers. Maybe some of these buyers will become converts, others may become bored and look for something else again.

[Vikram Arya]

The potential owner of the LX needs to be driven around in the cushiest of the environment, ensconced behind the dark glasses while listening to the 19 speaker Mark Levinson stereo as the 4 zone climate control and ventilated seats keep their derriere cool.

He/she is not overtly concerned about the 0-100 km acceleration time. The diesel V-8 would provide ample amount of torque to out accelerate most of the mundane traffic both in the city or the highway and also keep up with the joneses when it comes to their proverbial rise on the social ladder.

This prospective customer also needs to make a statement every time he/she arrives in a hotel lobby or club. The gargantuan proportions of the vehicle & the name plate will make sure that it is done in no uncertain terms especially with it’s in your face styling.

The uber rich in India will have one more toy to lavish their money on.

[carmayogi]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

But Lexus lx seems to be a contradiction. Clearly the mad predator styling suggest they are looking for younger buyers. Maybe some of these buyers will become converts, others may become bored and look for something else again.

I suppose there will be those who want a notionally or realistically more reliable car - we have heard complaints about all the luxury brands here at t-bhp. That said, Toyota really does not seem to know what it wants to do with Lexus and India. I know that luxury is a super-niche segment for now in India with volumes less than a certain mass market vehicles, but they could have launched vehicles related to the existing platforms used in India.

Finally, I don't actually believe that Toyota knows their market all that well in many segments. The Innova and Corolla have been well executed but the Etios? Even the Camry has been mis-handled for me. Came before many luxury brands but now is last in line. Curious to see where they go from here with Lexus.

[Abudhabicars]

One way where this could actually work is, if Toyota India pulls off a MBIL, and discontinues the LC 200 in India, forcing all such buyers to go for the LX 450d instead.

The Merc Strategy of discontinuing the S500 and only selling the S500 Maybach is a pretty smart move, and quite honestly the LX 570, or the LX 450 in this case, is the Maybach version of the LC 200. Then, even when priced at 1.6Cr On road, it still makes pretty good sense too. Also, unlike the S400 and S500 Engine Difference, there is none here so there is absolutely no need for two similar models to co-exist together when they barely sell in 2 digit numbers.

[Shivjeet]

So Lexus has finally decided to bring in the LX 570 as well, sometime in the middle of next year. The tentative price will be 2.5 on road, which makes me really angry and frustrated. I think TKM is on a suicide mission with the Lexus pricing.

The GL63 AMG is a 125,000 USD car in the US and the LX 570 is a 90,000 USD car. The GL63 is priced around 1.8 cr and Lexus wants to sell the LX570 for 2.5 cr. You can literally buy two LC 200's for that price. TKM has gone mad and I wish they read this. :(