[rajess_in]

Voted for option C:

1) My KTM Duke's brakes (Make in India) Bybre's last so far (more than 12k kms). A friend's FZ25 disc tossed over in just 6k kms esp. the rear ones. Whereas the first few lots of the 390's mag wheels had huge quality issues (we have thread on that).

2) My WR-V's oil seals are intact after 18 months, my friend changed his *****'s within 3 months (may be due adulterated fuel, sheer luck or whatever)

So I would assume it is the manufacturer who ensures inward quality (every OEM has it's own method / process to ensure it) and not the supplier.

[onkar1710]

Greetings of the day!

1. We need to add another perspective to the discussion.Car manufacturers exporting some models are generally complying with higher standards- safety, workmanship etc. And dishing out poorer quality products to the local populace.

2. Agree with GTO about the malaise being manufacturer-specific.

3. We have been blaming "poor metallurgy of India" for too long. Time is ripe to :-

(a) Step up consumer awareness/education.

(b) Regulatory framework updation, in sync with such phenomena.

Regards!

[hortons15]

I have to disagree with you on this. Among my people and the ones I deal with, I would say only about 20-30% really care about their work, are dedicated, and want to genuinely perform well on the job. The rest just try to get by, some are downright lazy and have a don't-care attitude about their work but pretend to be honest and very hardworking, and don't mind resorting to cheating/lying/sweeping stuff under the carpet when their slacking shows. I have employee turnover of over 50% easily, and I am constantly on the lookout for better people. When you say there are 1000s of contenders for the job and lethargy often gets shown the door, you're going to have to hire an unknown as their replacement, and sometimes that's worse.

If you live in India and deal with employees both low and high-level, anybody would easily agree with sushantr5's point. Westerners are in awe of our 'culture' during the honeymoon period, until they get a reality check. Don't get offended by the generalization; there are some of us that go above and beyond in our work, and we usually pick up the slack created by others. I'm a proud Indian too, but I feel our unique 'culture' that encourages mediocrity was developed by our education system and the brilliant mix of capitalism, communism and socialism in our society.

Originally Posted by Sebring

If we take your own example of a press machine operator, does it require special talent to operate? Are there any calculations that Indian operators do 'jugaad' and get by? Any coding or software application? The 'tool setter' simply positions the workpiece and controls the machine. The Indian machine tool operator follows the same protocol as his German counterpart. Regarding, hiring the cheapest guy for the job - you think the Germans and Japanese hire the most expensive man for the job? Isn't 'costing' a part of their deal too? Cost of living has a bearing on how much salary one draws, and they have strong unions which get the best deal for their workforce. This is why units are set up in India, China, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand. Indians do use 'contacts' to seek a job, but that's human nature, and can be done anywhere. But what are the chances he will get/keep the job merely on contacts? Ponder over this. Indians are among the most hard working in the world, we have a great 'culture' that you dismiss so easily - and the westerner is always in awe as how the Indian achieves so much for much, much less salary and benefits. Lethargy is often shown the door, since there are thousands of contenders for the same job. If 'X' number of units are to be produced there will be no deviation. I don't know what Companies you have worked for, but this is 'ground-reality'. Would appreciate if you do not bring racism into discussions.

[Sebring]

Well there are all kinds of workers, as they say 'different strokes for different folks'. But let me state only one thing, from a productivity point of view, if I have to choose between a European (with their umpteen coffee breaks and union rules) and an Indian worker, the numbers are far better in the latter's favour. Laziness is a universal phenomenon (few are really motivated, some are not) and on that I wouldn't comment . You and I, we both have our unique experiences, and have got around getting people to 'work' I'm sure. End of the day, we need those numbers.

Originally Posted by hortons15

If you live in India and deal with employees both low and high-level, anybody would easily agree with sushantr5's point.

[sushantr5]

Originally Posted by Sebring

If we take your own example of a press machine operator, does it require special talent to operate? Are there any calculations that Indian operators do 'jugaad' and get by? Any coding or software application? The... bring racism into discussions.

Speaking perticularly about example press tool operator job; I was press shop incharge back in 2003-2004. I was relatively fresher at that time but I would like to tell about my experince. Whenever I have to ask to schedule a production to a worker, then I had to be extremely polite because it was obvious reluctance from the workers to change all the tooling. The upper management was known to do extremely poor planning about product dispatch and shopfloor it was all reluctance to change things quickly. Moreover supporting tools available to lift the tool to setup the press were scarce so it was all dependent on the human strength to move the things. So sometime it was obvious from the worker to show reluctance. Moreover contract labour policy in Indian setup is horrible. Contract labour can stay no longer than 6 months in the position. So every six months new face would show up and he was not qualified for the job. He was often misused by senior workers, like lifting, cleaning. By the time he got trained it was time for him to go away and then comes the new face.

If I see factory in Germany now. Fortunately I am PLM manufacturing consultant for one of the most advanced plant in the world, Siemens AG Factory Automations Division Amberg Plant. Obviously it is unfair comparison with my first job and this job. But when I compare the workers who are working on road construction, painting, house repair I see lot difference in the approach. Starting from the education. In Germany there is no income disparity as such. Schooling start to train kids from 4rd Grade. Kids are seggragated based on skill levels. Kids are identified based on whether are they suitable for science studies or lobour work. Schooling is separated from 5th grade for type of skills. Now kids who grow up as some factory worker would start his skill polishing from 5th grade. From 9th or 10th Grade they can go on vocational training and then to job. There is no income disparity between Carpenter and the Doctor. Infact people who do labour intensive work get benefits of higher paygrade and less working hours.

So factory worker is groomed as factory worker from childhood. So press shop operator will be a person who has been trained in similar domain. Unlike in India, for press tool operater we receive job applications from 12th Grade to Engineering Graduate, who does not have any experience of holding a single screw driver or spanner in hand. Like in some news, Graduates apply for job of Peons in India. We are still living in colonial culture. German will be astonished to see there is job of Peon in India. You will not believe, German Schóol Teachers clean there own classrooms daily. There is special cleaning company who cleans complete school in a week but teacher has responsibility to keep classroom neat and tidy. Teacher also trains kids to keep things clean and arranged. There is certain discipline ensured in the kids. Teachers man school children at nearby traffic signals during school hours. Teachers themselves make printouts and prepare teaching material. Can you expect this from the teacher in India? or any manager in the factory? In my initial days I was asked to bring printouts of my manager from the printer in the lobby. You see where I am leading, The Culture in the Society; how developed nations build Culture in the Society

Now how this leads to Quality? We see press operator as a simple job which is not. Job environment is also impactacted by circumstances around job like management, work enviornment, ethics. The factory management in Germany will schedule better, will provide ample and superior supporting tools, will not think of firing a trained person. The worker will not be stressed, he will be aided by all kind of automated and sophisticated machinery. It doesn't matter how much time he spents as a coffee time. It matters how he works in the hour he works. Definitely we may have higher output per head, but German will have better output. Quality is outcome of everything, from Goverment Policies to the Work Environment.

But with Automation Quality affecting factors will be reduced. Vendors in India can also achieve higher quality by bringing practices onsite to offshore. Some have achieved it but most of the lot is still local.

[hortons15]

I totally agree! Europeans workers vis-a-vis Indian workers, the numbers are far better in our favor. All we need is the right set of individuals and we get the job done, cheaper and with better quality

Originally Posted by Sebring

Well there are all kinds of workers, as they say 'different strokes for different folks'. But let me state only one thing, from a productivity point of view, if I have to choose between a European (with their umpteen coffee breaks and union rules) and an Indian worker, the numbers are far better in the latter's favour. Laziness is a universal phenomenon (few are really motivated, some are not) and on that I wouldn't comment . You and I, we both have our unique experiences, and have got around getting people to 'work' I'm sure. End of the day, we need those numbers.