[typeOnegative]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

LOL, you are right. I forgot about the Vitara. do they actually sell any?

Don't know dude. But in my three years in Mumbai I have managed to see just two. Maybe they would be selling better in the Delhi area. Now that you are saying you have forgotten about it, I think it is the Grand Khatara now.

[hell_rider]

Originally Posted by typeOnegative

Well they do have the Vitara. Or do they?

Maruti has embarrasingly little to do with the Vitara. Best not mentioned.

Originally Posted by directinjection

Why do you say that? Speaking of further possibilities based on the Indica platform, haven't I myself referred to the Indica Sport and the Advent that were never launched?

Even with the same platform, you can have vehicles that have completely different shapes and characteristics.

For eg. the Maruti offerings Wagon R, Alto, Zen Estilo all look different and perform differently too, yet share the same common platform, something a lay person may not even notice. Similarly, the Swift platform has spawned other new vehicles like the SX4 (small SUV) and the upcoming new Baleno (sedan) that look and perform quite differently from one another.

How many vehicles has Tata produced based on the Indica platform that look different? None that I can think of.

Also, constant upgrading is not something that's confined to Tata. Maruti has been doing it too. When launched, the Esteem (then known as Maruti 1000) developed 45 BHP from its Gypsy engine. This increased to 65 BHP when the carburetted 1300 CC engine was introduced. MPFIsation of the engine increased the BHP to 85.

I wasn't trying to belittle Tata Motors, a company that I've admired for years but the fact remains that they have been slow with further development of the Indica platform. The departure of Mr. Sumantran from Tata Motors a few years back was also said to be linked to his failure to develop further variants of Indica in time.

hey man, I never said you are trying to belittle Tata motors. I do get your point. There are areas where TATA has not seized the initiative.

but then you also got to keep in mind that its taken Maruti over two decades to get here. Also you got to keep in mind that all these new happenings at Maruti are not because they had the vision or the spunk. Its merely because their hand was forced by Hyundai, TATA and others. If not for these other manufacturers, MUL would still be offering us 3 models till date, the M800, the Zen and the Esteem. That does not sound very pro-active to me.

But see where TATA is in how many years. At this stage, I believe TATA first wants to consolidate and put down firm roots before diversfying their product line-up. Or at least they *should* be doing that.

Which is what I meant in my first post, when I said instead of cooking up SX and LWB versions, with stupid gadgets and unwanted bells and whistles, they need to concentrate on build quality, NVH levels..generally refinement.

Again, for my part, I am not trying to belittle MUL. But I personally cannot respect a car manufacturer who cannot build his own engine. If you can't do that, lets face it, you are just a glorified assembler. They can't do the engines, neither the gear-boxes, they import discarded dies from Suzuki Japan...I mean come on guys...strap on a pair.

[typeOnegative]

Originally Posted by hell_rider

Maruti has embarrasingly little to do with the Vitara. Best not mentioned.

That is kind of confusing. Care explain? Ofcourse Maruti has not developed the Vitara. But then, it has developed nothing in its stable in any case.

[Technocrat]

good points there hell_rider..

How I see things is that any Indian Auto company which has to survive needs to get constant upgrades either to better their quality(which is fine since they are startups when compared to others) or to keep public interest in their models. We can see that similar model is used by Bajaj as well in two wheelers.

But then, it has developed nothing in its stable in any case.

You forgot the *New Look* Zen, Esteem, Alto etc etc

[typeOnegative]

Originally Posted by Technocrat

You forgot the *New Look* Zen, Esteem, Alto etc etc

Damn how did I forget?

[hell_rider]

Originally Posted by typeOnegative

That is kind of confusing. Care explain? Ofcourse Maruti has not developed the Vitara. But then, it has developed nothing in its stable in any case.

true. what I meant was MUL has even less in contribution with respect to the Vitara. IIRC the Vitara is not even "assembled" by MUL. Its a full import. Somebody correct me if I am wrong please.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by hell_rider

hey man, I never said you are trying to belittle Tata motors. I do get your point. There are areas where TATA has not seized the initiative.

but then you also got to keep in mind that its taken Maruti over two decades to get here. Also you got to keep in mind that all these new happenings at Maruti are not because they had the vision or the spunk. Its merely because their hand was forced by Hyundai, TATA and others. If not for these other manufacturers, MUL would still be offering us 3 models till date, the M800, the Zen and the Esteem. That does not sound very pro-active to me.

But see where TATA is in how many years. At this stage, I believe TATA first wants to consolidate and put down firm roots before diversfying their product line-up. Or at least they *should* be doing that.

Which is what I meant in my first post, when I said instead of cooking up SX and LWB versions, with stupid gadgets and unwanted bells and whistles, they need to concentrate on build quality, NVH levels..generally refinement.

Again, for my part, I am not trying to belittle MUL. But I personally cannot respect a car manufacturer who cannot build his own engine. If you can't do that, lets face it, you are just a glorified assembler. They can't do the engines, neither the gear-boxes, they import discarded dies from Suzuki Japan...I mean come on guys...strap on a pair.

I get your point.

MUL is a company controlled by the Japanese, not Indians. Every strategic decision at Maruti is guided by what's in the best interest of Suzuki and Japan, not necessarily what's in the best interest of Maruti and India. Doesn't Maruti pay millions in royalty and dividend to Suzuki, not necessarily matched by exports?

I once asked a Maruti engineer who had attended a training programme at Suzuki Japan about how the Suzuki guys in Japan treated the guys from Maruti and his reply was that their attitude wasn't good; they didn't respect the Indians.

Tata Motors is a company of/for/by Indians. It's an auto company that creates, not adapts, vehicles for India. If only Tata cars could match the quality and reliability levels of Maruti and Suzuki! Tata could then sell a lot more cars and utilise its manufacturing capacity better. Its ambitious global plans and the recent acquisitions and tie-ups are steps in the right direction. I'm hopeful that future Tata vehicles will be a lot better.

I'm also hopeful that Indian engineers will get more respect from the Japanese in future.

[Technocrat]

Originally Posted by directinjection

If only Tata cars could match the quality and reliability levels of Maruti and Suzuki!

I really wonder why you call Maruti & suzuki separately, there is no Maruti, its justa badge nothing else, everything that we get is Suzuki.

As about treatement to engineers one of my friend who works there as an assistant manager(he joined from IIT) told me that the japanese engineers are very strict about QC & we should be thankfull because from what he told the indian engineers or labourers used to play a lot with the finished products in their godown read: spinning wheels & doing doughnuts, which now thanks to the jap guys is a strict no no.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by Technocrat

I really wonder why you call Maruti & suzuki separately

No particular reason other than to distinguish the Indian company from its Japanese parent.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by directinjection

If only Tata cars could match the quality and reliability levels of Maruti and Suzuki!

Now, that's a real big if.

Originally Posted by directinjection

I'm also hopeful that Indian engineers will get more respect from the Japanese in future.

It's nothing about India or Indians. It is just about the Japanese culture of obession with quality. Our American engineers had to eat dirt while implementing a project in Japan, which they had assumed to be a piece of cake, given their leadership position in the U.S.. The Japs respect quality and bull**** won't get you anywhere with them. Plain and simple.

[sgmuser]

There is this community is growing very fast, who loves Tata cars and wants them to be improved in all sorts to compete foreign cars but never wants to really buy one! For them have a look at this!

http://www.tatasa.co.za/news/2007%20...0%20000kms.pdf

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by sgmuser

There is this community is growing very fast, who loves Tata cars and wants them to be improved in all sorts to compete foreign cars but never wants to really buy one! For them have a look at this!

http://www.tatasa.co.za/news/2007%20...0%20000kms.pdf

Very interesting indeed!
Perhaps the most positive Indica review that I have ever read.
Nice find sgmuser!

Cheers!

[tsk1979]

This only proves what everyone suspects, tata export models go through a much more rigorous QC checks than what is dished out here.
Many indica's run without major mechanical problems, but running without rattles is really something.

[hell_rider]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Very interesting indeed!
Perhaps the most positive Indica review that I have ever read.
Nice find sgmuser!

Cheers!

last month I had hired this indica cool cab to ferry my folks to and from mumbai central railway station. in course of the commutes, i began discussing the car with this elderly cab driver. he said in three odd years, he has not had a single breakdown or unwanted expenses apart from the regular services. and once his loan is thru on the current indica, he will be going for 2 more indicas. his combined fuel efficiency figures hover between 15-17 kmpl.

the thing is, there are scores of such people who are happy with their indicas. but these people are not going to be able to sign up at team-bhp and post reviews.

[hell_rider]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

This only proves what everyone suspects, tata export models go through a much more rigorous QC checks than what is dished out here.
Many indica's run without major mechanical problems, but running without rattles is really something.

i second that. I am sure the export lot is much better built.

the indicas have air-bags and ABS etc. why couldn't they have at least offered those as options here ??? sure, it would add up to the cost of the car. but they must give the option to those who do not mind paying for these features.

i am irritated with the fact that TATA is taking us indian customers for granted.

i guess this is what directinjection was talking about w.r.t. TATAs not taking the initiative.