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Old 17th November 2020, 22:25   #31
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Was there a need of a proof? The 3D images posted have little value unless supported by other technical parameters that goes into the design of the chassis.
This is an excellent thread that shows what exactly the cars we are buying in India are lacking.

Yes, proof is nice to see because there are folks who are claiming gncap is rigged and corrupt because Seltos in North America scored a 5 star while GNCAP awarded 3 stars for the Indian car .

Again, the technical parameters and color coding is clearly shown and there is only so much info one could gather from the public domain.

Last edited by Ragavsr : 17th November 2020 at 22:27.
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Old 17th November 2020, 22:50   #32
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

If authorities care, these issues will not arise. Acceptability and affordability are the primary drivers in the Indian market. Looks good externally but lacks features is the 'chalta hai' attitude.

Although, considering the infrastructure in India, downgrading a product and tuning it accordingly is not a bad business decision. Of course, offer the world class product and let customers choose.
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Old 17th November 2020, 22:56   #33
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

OK, I missed reading the comparison on i10 Nios, but even after reading that, am of the firm opinion that such analyses have no meaning without the full design data, boundary conditions being made available.

I was involved in similar arguments when K truss on Ford Endeavour was being discussed. Why do you think using high strength steel (HSS) instead of Ultra high strength steel (UHSS) compromises the strength of body shell? If HSS is locally available at a cheaper rate here in India as compared to UHSS, and if the structural member can be designed differently, so that it serves the same strength requirements, then what's the problem in using HSS or even mild steel for that matter.

In my Industry we use lower grade steel to achieve similar strength requirements if we are able to source lower grade steel cheaper locally. If the intended customer is abroad where cheaper steel isn't available, or shipping it becomes cost in-effective, we use ultra high strength steel and design accordingly. Am not sure, if such information was accounted for while coming to a conclusion in this analysis. Sometimes the gauge of metal to be used is specified by codes of the country or customer requirements, corrosion protection, safety requirements, etc. Why do we want every part of world have same design of everything. If you want our cars to be safer, put pressure on government to increase the safety requirements, do not bash the car companies.

Car companies can easily provide you same spec car as in Europe e.g. a Swift for 14L and S-cross for 18L, but question is will you buy it at that price? OK, a few might buy, but what about the overall market. Wouldn't it shrink by 50% or maybe 75%. Will we create a separate thread then bashing that car company for fleeing the country due to unviable operations. Grow up guys.

Last edited by Eddy : 20th November 2020 at 01:04. Reason: Spacing for better readability
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Old 17th November 2020, 23:15   #34
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

Stupid question may be but are we sure what mild steel/high strength/ultra high strength is in Europe is the same as that in India?

I tried googling and didnt get much info on these terms.
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Old 17th November 2020, 23:41   #35
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

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Originally Posted by anandhsub View Post
Stupid question may be but are we sure what mild steel/high strength/ultra high strength
Yeah, steel is steel. If manufactured according to specifications, it should be the same whether made in the India, Japan, or the USA. Obviously, Hyundai have taken care to make the Indian version of their cars cheaper by using a lower grade of steel.

Also, rust-proofing in the Indian cars might be inferior as our country doesn't have snow (except some remote hill stations) and/or concept of corrosion warranties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Car companies can easily provide you same spec car as in Europe e.g. a Swift for 14L and S-cross for 18L, but question is will you buy it at that price? OK, a few might buy, but what about the overall market....Grow up guys.
I hope you're not suggesting that lives of Indians worth less than the lives of Americans & Europeans. Yes, I know affordability is a big question mark - but that is a problem we should solve by investing in more public transport - cars can then be rented for leisure. Also, when we have world-class expressways where cars cruise at 100-120 km/h, why should we not have the world-class safety features?

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 17th November 2020 at 23:47.
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Old 17th November 2020, 23:43   #36
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

One observation I had:

1. Kona and Tucson - front door section of body is Ultra High Strength Steel
2. Santro - front door section is High Strength Steel.

Based on the recent car test results, HSS doesn't seem to be sufficient for getting a good crash rating whereas the models with UHSS are getting a good crash rating. And UHSS is only being used on CBU/CKD models.
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Old 17th November 2020, 23:46   #37
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

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Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
if the structural member can be designed differently, so that it serves the same strength requirement
But question is will you buy it at that price?
Will we create a separate thread then bashing that car company for fleeing the country due to unviable operations.
We are talking of a sister company to the brand which barely got 3 stars for a car that retails upto 21.5 lakhs. And has repeatedly received poor ratings for its own products tested. The maximum rating Hyundai has achieved in the Indian market is 2 stars. So I guess that negates all the arguments -

1. Price isn't a big concern for Hyundai. None of the Hyundai products are priced aggressively for the segment these days! 10 lakhs for a top end i10, 13 lakhs for an i20 and 22 lakhs for Creta isn't cheap so as to compromise safety these days.

2. It is not the same strength with the different member. NCAP has ripped that argument apart.

3. Far from unviable operations - Hyundai India had a turnover of 44,000 crores in FY20 with a net profit of 2,390.60 crore, and as you know - is the second largest player in the Indian market. And there is also Kia.

So why not bring it on the discussion table if there is solid discussion points like RSR has unearthed! Every company has their own flaws and it is up to the customers to make their own decision! The majority will still go ahead for sure - but at-least they do get to make an educated decision after weighing the pros and cons.
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Old 18th November 2020, 00:46   #38
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

Is the Grand i10 Nios based on the previous Grand i10? (Don’t know want to cross-check)

If so then in the Euro NCAP the (Grand) i10 scored 4 stars with 4 airbags, seatbelt reminder for front and rear passengers and ESC as standard. These results were applicable till May 2019 in Europe.

Also as shown by BHPian RSR the structure differences are clearly visible between the Indian and EU car. The base of both have major differences. So definitely Hyundai India has cut costs!

Euro NCAP results of the 2014-2019 i10 sold in Europe (Grand i10 in India).
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/hyundai/i10/7868

Last edited by CEF_Beasts : 18th November 2020 at 00:48.
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Old 18th November 2020, 06:52   #39
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Why do you think using high strength steel (HSS) instead of Ultra high strength steel (UHSS) compromises the strength of body shell?
There is no need to think or speculate any more. The GNCAP results speak for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
Why do we want every part of world have same design of everything.
This argument would have held prior to GNCAP testing, not now. We are not asking for the same design, just the same standards of safety. Is that too much to ask? A ESP unit costs 30 to 50 USD. That is not even 0.5% of the selling price of their cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
If you want our cars to be safer, put pressure on government to increase the safety requirements, do not bash the car companies.
To put pressure on government, the general intelligence of the population has to move many notches higher, don't see that happening anytime soon. Right now our priority is chrome, sunroofs and touchscreens.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:36   #40
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

Gentlemen, I have a different question:

What's the difference between the cost of HSS and Ultra HSS? I mean complete implementation cost, say cost of metal + the processes. I am expecting that the processing cost of Ultra HSS shall be a few folds higher than that of HSS itself.

My understanding as an ex-design engineer says that:

Two different metals means more expensive process of joining them too. Hence, I need to get a rough idea of the cost savings a manufacturer would make by using HSS instead of Ultra HSS?

See, I know that implementing one chassis member here and there costs more than adding buttons on steering wheel etc. But unaware of even a rough estimate. Probably the cost difference is the reason that companies make so many compromises in India.

Additionally, if anyone could arrange for it. I would like to see the chassis structures of Polo, Punto, i20, and Altroz, being compared.

To some extent I agree with Chaudh2s too, the thread is really informative, but the value I have been able to derive out of it has been quite low till now. I appreciate every single post by esteemed member RSR, but if it had comparison with the competition too, then this thread would have become a gold mine.

Last edited by VKumar : 18th November 2020 at 07:37.
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Old 18th November 2020, 07:46   #41
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As a customer, I am not bothered if the manufacturer uses high strength or ultra high strength steel in the body structure. All I care is if the car is safe or not
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Old 18th November 2020, 08:29   #42
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

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Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
What a useless thread in my opinion. Other than telling that Hyundai sells some models, same as in other markets, whereas some other models are India specific, backed by some 3D images, it doesn't give any other value addition. Doesn't everyone knows that already? Was there a need of a proof? The 3D images posted have little value unless supported by other technical parameters that goes into the design of the chassis.
I agree with everything except calling the thread, "Useless". Let's just not read/post and leave it for others who think it is useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chaudh2s View Post
OK, I missed reading the comparison on i10 Nios, but even after reading that, am of the firm opinion that such analyses have no meaning without the full design data, boundary conditions being made available.
This is an excellent point.

I don't mean to discredit the OP but what's being presented is an opinion based on visual analysis of available diagrams.

I'm not sure how people take this as proof of what's out there. One can draw comparisons with the opinion and the GNCAP ratings and then arrive at their own conclusions. But IMHO I wouldn't call these proof enough to conclude that X is better than Y or it is because of ABC that the GNCAP rating was Z.

It's highly theoretical and open to debate. Not that it's a wrong thing but be cognizant of that before presenting bouquets or brickbats.

As a customer, I'm bothered if the product does what it's supposed to do. I'm not bothered about how they went about achieving it. If people think that by reviewing a few diagrams they know how they have achieved it, then I find it amusing. I also have no interest in the term, "platform". I'm buying a car and not a platform. Two car models could be very different based on several parameters even though they are built on the same platform.

Let's move to the safety aspect. The safety ratings of organisations like GNCAP, ANCAP are there to simplify things for customers like me. They provide a simple Star rating that is supported by a critical fact sheet. That's all I am after. Most customers aren't even after that anyway.

And coming back to chaudh2s's original point, it's pretty damn always obvious that cars made for India vs. cars made for export to developed countries were always different.
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Old 18th November 2020, 09:36   #43
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
So, as we can observe from these diagrams, the Indian Grand i10 Nios (AI3) shares the same K1 platform with the European i10 (AC3) and is a longer car with a longer wheelbase, but there definitely are differences in the strength of steel used for some platform members.
Thanks RSR, this is amazing. Kudos to your effort and resources put in.
The use of HSS across the floor-pan and UHSS on those two members seems like it was done to pass "some" crash test requirement. This proves that unless there is a regulation to be met the manufacturer won't always comply. Thus reinforcing the need for better crash test regulations in India.

Looking forward to your next post.
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:04   #44
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

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Originally Posted by RSR View Post
Now, let's take a look at the Grand i10 Nios.
Hi RSR,
Thanks again for sharing this.
I had a look at Grand i10 Nios brochure.
They claim to have 65% of AHSS + HSS.
However from your post I see that the Indian version of Grand i10 Nios doesn't get any AHSS at all?
Is Hyundai lying upfront? My apologies if my understanding is incorrect.
I've attached the brochure and the image for reference
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File Type: pdf grand-i10-nios.pdf (2.16 MB, 609 views)
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Old 18th November 2020, 10:26   #45
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Default Re: Are Indian Hyundais different from developed market Hyundais? If so, how?

Thanks RSR for the effort in collating this data and putting it across in our forum. Would love to see how Hyundai cars compare with Tata and Mahindra cars which have scored 4-5 star safety ratings.

The myth that making a car safe increases the cost of the car has been dispelled by the likes of Tata and Mahindra with their Nexon, Altroz and XUV300. I believe Tata and Mahindra must have used UHSS atleast in the front to get such frontal impact scores but might need to see such body diagrams to be sure.

I atleast hope Hyundai has used UHSS on their 13 lakh hatchback, the new i20 to get better safety ratings. But I don't expect that from a manufacturer like Hyundai because they had proudly claimed and even had stickers on their first gen i20 cars with 5 star safety rating badge, when in fact it was the European version of the car which got tested and got those ratings and not the Indian version.

After having seen the Kia Seltos crash ratings, whatever hope we have from Hyundai vanishes. If they can do that for a 20+ lakh car, they will not bother about other Indian made cars as well. Leaving aside all gadgets and gizmos, it is time to put Hyundai and Maruti on the same pedestal when it comes to safe cars. Both companies have scant regards for customers safety.
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