[typeOnegative]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Can you justify or quantify this?

If Fiat is such a great car maker, why is it in trouble so often?

Fiat makes great cars. It is not a great car maker. At least not in India. I think that should put it in context.

Also for the rants about Fiat's performance as a company, there are some who will not appreciate a turn around - and that includes you v1p3r. It is a turnaround story just like what Carlos Goshn did for his company. Give credit where credit is due.

It is just like people criticizing Hyundai for no rhyme or reason and one of the guy who does that is criticizing Fiat as well in this thread. Yes Speedzak that is you. Fiat sucks not because the car is awful but because the company did not run the operation in India like it should.

Once again I reiterate, the Petra was stopped not only because of its dismal sales and public perception but also because imho, it may be potent competition to the Tata lineup. It is better that these two complement each others strengths rather than eat into each others revenue. Mainly because just as Tata is helping Fiat here, I want Fiat to help Tata outside.

P.S. As an aside, I think that just as there are some who will praise Fiat cars no matter what, there are quite a few who will pull down Fiat cars no matter what. I am disappointed, but such is the way it is.

[greatDrive]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Can you justify or quantify this?

If Fiat is such a great car maker, why is it in trouble so often?

I read this in some Magzine where they had done this survery of Around 10-12 cars..
Optra lead the ratings followed by Corsa and then petra

[WhiteKnight]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Let me refresh your memory. In 2002, they made a loss of USD 500 million. Around the same time, they had accumulated debts of over USD 6 billion.

Well, the ditch is much larger. In 2002 FIAT made a loss of $ 4.6 Billion over sales of $ 59.9 B. In 2006 they made profit of $ 880 Million over sales of $ 69.36 Billion. All I can say is that they got to go a long way to get out of the gutter and pronounce that they are back.

Originally Posted by finneyp

Fiat worldwide are doing great and making profits!

It is true that FIAT made profits in last 2 financial years. All looks great in percentage, not in monetary terms. Their net profit margin is just 1.5%. They'll surely need a decade of good performance to really pull out of the spectacular losses they had in the past.

Originally Posted by typeOnegative

Also for the rants about Fiat's performance as a company, there are some who will not appreciate a turn around - and that includes you v1p3r. It is a turnaround story just like what Carlos Goshn did for his company. Give credit where credit is due.
P.S. As an aside, I think that just as there are some who will praise Fiat cars no matter what, there are quite a few who will pull down Fiat cars no matter what. I am disappointed, but such is the way it is.

I do appreciate the turnaround. This one is more romantic and dramatic (One car saving the company-even FIAT was surprised) than a result of cold and calculated business decisions (what Ghosn did).
I am neutral when it comes to FIAT cars, but what FIAT India management has been doing never made any business sense to me. Also, the often stratospheric, unjustified claims made by some "palio lovers" definitely erode any respect I have to FIAT cars. Anyway you are not one of them

[RX135]

Originally Posted by typeOnegative

P.S. As an aside, I think that just as there are some who will praise Fiat cars no matter what, there are quite a few who will pull down Fiat cars no matter what. I am disappointed, but such is the way it is.

Well, said! Just like "Fiat Fanatics", there seem to be numerous "Anti-Fiat Fanatics" around here. May be classified as "anti-fiat boys".

And coming back to Petra, I am extremely satisfied customer of Petra since past 2.5 years and that is what counts for me more than any Pro/Anti Fiat rhetoric.

[neoonwheels]

If thick metal sheets is not one of the safety concern, Maruti 800 would have been the "Safest" car ever made in India....

Perhaps we Indians still deserve what Maurti has been giving us since 15 years "Tin boxes". FIAT was stupid to realize it way before... I believe Palio was the first hatchback introducing ABS.... But yehhhhh.... it does not have great Service backup... I like Maurti in that.. Even though (Before Swift) they used to sell all dumped models from Suzuki stale, they always had great service for their garbage... Swift diesel is selling good but with the fact that "Engine" is from FIAT and service is from Maruti...

Anyways as TypeONegative pointed out... Its just because of the fact that in future TATA and FIAT would compliment each other rather than competing with each other..

Cheers
NeoOnWheels

[DCEite]

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

If thick metal sheets is not one of the safety concern, Maruti 800 would have been the "Safest" car ever made in India....

What kind of strange logic is that? Seems you live in a binary world. Thick metal sheet not an attribute to safety in NO WAY implies that thin metal sheet is the cornerstone of safety.

[supremeBaleno]

OK, so from Fiat-bashing, looks like we are moving onto Suzuki-bashing.

Anyway, I am no Fiat fan. Grew up seeing only the rickety Premier Padminis as Fiats, which could have resulted in an image which makes me stay away from them. While the Palio cannot be compared to those cars, I would still stay away as long as the Japs are in business.

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

If thick metal sheets is not one of the safety concern, Maruti 800 would have been the "Safest" car ever made in India....

Have a garbage truck ram real hard into the M800 and the Palio under similar conditions, and if someone believes that they will walk out unscathed from the Palio just because it has more metal, all I have to say is they are living in dreamland. Its nice to say that it is built like a tank and all that, but that is just a psychological high that you are getting, not reality. Lets have a properly certified crash rating and then we will talk.

However, if we were to have a biker hit both the cars from the side, yes, the Palio will have a lesser dent than the M800. But when it comes to real serious accidents, there is not much of a difference.

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

Perhaps we Indians still deserve what Maurti has been giving us since 15 years "Tin boxes".

Yeah, the M800 is a tin box. But a tin box that works reliably, is the most FE, with support all over the country, parts available cheap & over the counter (not waiting for months), has sold lakhs over the past 20-odd years and still selling truckloads.

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

Even though (Before Swift) they used to sell all dumped models from Suzuki stale, they always had great service for their garbage...

Yes, the models are kind of stale. But does the supposedly new cars from the competitors have it in them to take on even these old cars ? And garbage is a pretty strong word, buddy.

Take the Esteem - here since 1994 and still sells like mad. The Ikon is newer, but can it beat the Esteem in FE or quickness or reliability or low maintenance? All the Ikon has is newer looks (subjective) and maybe better interiors. Is that what a car is about ?

A newer car IMO should be more powerful or more FE or still better both. Now that would be cutting-edge technology, and not just beige interiors.

Take the Baleno. Came in 1999. Still the fastest car to the ton even when compared to newer cars like Fiesta, Verna etc and good FE to boot. The only car that beats it to the ton and maybe (not sure) in FE also is costlier by 3 lakhs. With its old cars trumping the competition's new offerings, does Suzuki really need to bring its latest here ? No competition IMO.

Originally Posted by neoonwheels

Swift diesel is selling good but with the fact that "Engine" is from FIAT and service is from Maruti...

You mean to say that the Swift(P) does not sell and it is only the diesel that sells. You would be very wrong with that thinking.

[finneyp]

Welcome SB!
We were missing you on this thread!

[supremeBaleno]

Was watching the thread for sometime from the sidelines.
But with Suzuki being dragged into a Fiat thread, there was no way I could remain a mere spectator, could I finneyp ?

[tsk1979]

Note from mod:
Thread closed. Its serving no purpose except mine is bigger than yours debate. Please take your crash party to PMs