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-   -   The lazy Japanese car manufacturers in India (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian-car-scene/233722-lazy-japanese-car-manufacturers-india.html)

Ok, So I've noticed certain laziness on part of the J. Car Manufacturers. It is pretty consistent among the top 3, Suzuki, Toyota & Honda. I will try to provide a summary of levels of laziness of each of them IMHO. While I do realize that it is easier to criticize but considering what the Koreans and even EU's are doing, I believe, there is absolutely no excuse for the Japs. Considering, the kind of 1st Mover advantage or extensive portfolio they have internationally:

Suzuki:
1. Considering, India is the largest market for Suzuki, there is absolutely no innovation, except cheap prices. (That also isn't too true anymore)
2. Extremely poor safety standard
3. Zero Electrification
4.No Global car launches in India, if I'm correct, they are mostly launched in Indonesia or Europe or other SE Asian Countries and then they are launched in India. Case in point, Ertiga or XL6 etc.
5. Suzuki Swift 2021 launched today, is certainly another lazy upgrade with no industry leading specs.
6.No Torque Converter gearbox, only horrible AMTs

Toyota

I don't even know where to begin!
1. Shameless Glenza & Urban Cruiser takes the cake!
2. They haven't really done much to Innova since it's launch besides a little nip & tuck.
3. Corolla is gone, Yaris doesn't even cut it as a competition to C Segment cars. Liva et all is all gone!
4. They have such an amazing global portfolio of SUVs & MVs but they are just too slow.
5. Camry is an amazing product but it is simply too overpriced for its worth.

Honda
1. Mobilio Gone, Civic Gone, CRV Gone, Accord Gone
2. Absolutely poor portfolio of small SUVs that are simply outmatched viz-a-viz Korean Counterparts.
3. City is too overpriced for what it is.
4. CVTs in the portfolio is an absolute disaster. I wonder why do they even continue to invest in such a bad gearbox!
5. Poor conditions of Dealers & Sales Personnel. (Personally experienced the horrible Sales Attitude)
6. No electric car
7. All this is so evident from the fact that the Greater Noida plant is shut. What a pity

Nissan
1. One-hit wonders will not cut out for them
2. They even couldn't bother to change the Datsun front grill on Magnite with Nissan.
3. As with all of the above, their global portfolio is amazing, but they continue to offer really second though products in India.
4. Where is Leaf? Even Benz got EQC for awareness!
5. X-trail is gone
6. No word on the new Sunny
7. Kicks is barely cutting it out and available at steep discounts.
8. Incredibly poor Datsun attempt!

This rant basically sums up the thoughts. IMHO, they should really learn something from Hyundai/KIA group. All of the above may also hold true for Skoda/VW but they are now making a sincere attempt to get their act together, however, with Petrol crossing Rs.100, I think the only petrol portfolio will come back to bite them in the rear end!

On the other hand look at TATA, they are simply killing it, they have literally come back from the grave! Thanks a lot to Guenter Butschek I guess, He has done an amazing job!

I agree with all your points. In 2003 when honda launched dolphin shaped city it was 8 lac rupees on road. I happened to check the billing papers that go to RTO. I was shocked to see that the cost of car for Honda to make was only 3.6 lacs and the remaining was just taxes levied by GOI and MH Gov. In my opinion the governments of India including all political parties talk very big during elections but later all are the same. They either are in denial and later learn the truth or we are just made to be fools.

Now taking the above into consideration just think how much tax they collect therefore there is very little for OEM to charge and make money. Im not saying that OEM are loss making but i feel the OEM wants their share and GOI MH Gov want their share and we have no where to go. In order to maybe satisfy us they water down the safety or features or structural integrity aspect and give us a bad product which is extremely despicable behaviour. I think with GST certain things changed but still taxes are high in India.

If anyone thinks im going off topic i would disagree because these are some of the reasons I personally feel that these Japanese companies are not bringing latest technology to India.

I personally think we Indians are foolish to buy Maruti Suzuki considering how unsafe they are, I think that Toyota is milking us in the name of reliability, and Honda is just confused about which direction to take. The Koreans have made inroads by maybe having less upfront cost on the car but having owned a few of them theyre unrealiable, not the same level of reliability as the japanese, theyre unsafe which all crash tests prove and their maintenance is also very heavy ( im talking from personal experience).

Toyota globally was adamant about not shifting to EV and even in the latest press release for USA they said we will introduce EV but we still think hybrid better which means that theyre still adamant on sticking to their guns, now what will happen is market dynamics will force them to move or get irrelevant. I expect the same for Honda and Maruti Suzuki.

Totally agreed but this is not limited to Japanese makers. It is the same case with Vw and Ford as well, when was the last time they've introduced brand new car for Indian market? At least Vw and Ford cars are pretty well built and engineered to last. Don't get me started on Koreans!

Except Tata, Mahindra, Skoda(to some extent), no other company is too passionate about Indian market or Indian consumers. I lost trust with Koreans and MSIL wrt how safe their cars are. And as end users we are okay with this and encouraging as much as we can :Frustrati by buying these products.

IMO it is worldwide phenomenon and it is not India specific. Japanese are struggling in every sphere from automobiles to electronics.
Its more to do with closed ecosystem of Japanese Industry.

Reliability on the mechanical, electronic and electrical front are what keep them going to which fuel frugality can be added.

Starting with ZERO stars in the old NCAP ratings and now graduating to as many as four in the BVSAP ratings (only as it became mandatory), does not make them safe. Even two wheeler hits damage the Japanese cars considerably, putting the owners into financial miseries.

Honda has already shut down its Greater Noida plant and has shifted all its production to the Tapukara plant in Alwar dist, Rajasthan. Given their laid back attitude, only hope more such casualties do not come as bolts from the blue.

Yet another point adding to the list is that since time immemorial, the Japanese car ( and also two wheeler, though out of topic here) makers have been too disinterested and casual in introducing and adding or substituting newer colour shades to their portfolio.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...choices-2.html

I don't agree with the term lazy. Rate at which facelifts and launching new models may be very slow by the manufacturers mentioned.

But, I consider them to be right business strategy to grow up the business.

The main goal of Launching new cars and facelifts is to yield the required business growth. But, Launching multiple facelifts with minimal and unnoticeable changes and launching multiple immature new cars with out market study won't yield business growth.

And, it is very evident with the trend these manufacturers are going through with the adopted slow and steady strategy.

Here are some reasons —

Suzuki - Everything sells!

• Swift (because you mentioned) - This car is a bestseller!
• Every other tin can - Sells in thousands!

Toyota - (Fortuner + Innova) + (Glanza + UC) * Reliability = Success!

• The only products they can bring in are the Avanza etc. or similar.
• Toyota NA has 15+ sedans and few SUVs but none of them have a market in India to sell in volumes; except, say the RAV 4. The Highlander/4Runner might be trouble for the Fortuner or a Tiguan Allspace like story.
• Toyota already has a success formula, why do they need anything else? (Although I desperately need the Sienna - to rival the Carnival)
• I’d say Toyota don’t even care about any other cars, or even the Fortuner or Innova. While the Koreans and French and Indians organise huge media events, ensure reviews from all famous media houses, Toyota doesn’t care. No special launch, no media drive.
• My previous point is like Ferrari running TVCs and billboards. They don’t! Those who want to buy a Ferrari would buy a Ferrari.
  

Honda - Like that restaurant which specialises in only one type of cuisine.

• Some eateries have multiple cuisines on their menu, and most of the times they are neither here nor there. And then there are those that only have one type of food but make the most authentic recipes.
• Honda is the latter. They have a best seller with the City and the Amaze.
• Honda’s premium offerings like the CRV, Accord etc. never took off, same with Suzuki Kizashi, Grand Vitara, or Nissan Teana, or Toyota Prius, or Nissan XTrail etcetera.

Nissan - “Exports + Magnite”

• All this while, exports helped Nissan survive.
• That’s how they will continue to survive.
• The Magnite might even be a short lived success since a better Kiger is here.

Guys, I have a question — both Toyota and Suzuki have more competent cars in Indonesia. Why? Both Ertiga and Crysta were first launched there before they landed on our shores. Aren’t we the 4th largest car market?

I was under the impression both these brands are serious about Indonesia, and not about India. While, brands like Kia prioritise the Indian Market. The big question is, are Jap brands taking us for granted?

Similarly, even Nissan has better products in Thailand etc, while we don’t! Why? Do other SE Asia countries have better cars than us?

If Toyota and Honda did not provide quality products like the Innova/Fortuner or City, I would even boycott them! But, quality is their USP which I love and appreciate. There is still no rival for the Innova.

As far as Korean brands go, even Hyundai doesn’t offer any premium products. Kia is one brave brand for introducing the Carnival — us Innova owners found the perfect upgrade!

Zac Hollis’s tweets definitely show that he is serious about India.

Never thought I'd see anyone calling the Japs lazy. Its probably a tad unfair to label them all lazy. They are operating to the best of their capacity in a very tough environment like India.

They have a solid reputation for reliable, trouble free products, and they have a penchant for being extremely process driven and hard working. I would gladly buy a Japanese car over the competition.

There are certain cultural nuances to be understood. A lot of the practices and approaches make sense when viewed in the light of where they come from.
Japanese culture values stability, predictability, and incremental improvements.
There's a certain sense of comfort associated with knowing what to expect, than being surprised by each move. These qualities might not resonate with everyone or appeal to everyone, but, does strike a chord with certain segments of the market.
For example, knowing that a new generation of Honda City is launched roughly every five to six years, and that there's a mid-life facelift that comes somewhere in the second to third year of a generation gives a certain level of comfort while investing in a car that someone would like to hold on to for a longer period of time.

There are cases when people complain when Ford deletes features from their models. There are cases when people complain when better offerings are made in lower variants. Example:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...i-variant.html

With all due respect, here are my thoughts on some of the points.

They read the market quite well, and offer what sells. They innovate in their own ways (not necessarily limited to product innovation).
Examples:
1. Their approach towards network expansion and dealership reach within the country:
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/te...e-5725581.html

2. Their approach towards reducing entry barriers for first time buyers:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...jor-banks.html

They are essentially building moats around their business and making it increasingly difficult for other players to replicate some of their advantages.
Some additional reading, which would help understand the concept of moats:
Profit Is Less About Good Management than You Think (hbr.org)

And, yes, there's a perennial debate of moats versus innovation, which is explained in this article:
https://hbr.org/2018/05/a-40-year-de...warren-buffett

And, here's an article that explains the moat concept applied to Maruti Suzuki's context:
https://www.motilaloswal.com/site/rr...9203/index.htm

That's not true.
The Baleno comes with CVT gearbox.
The Brezza, Ciaz, S-Cross, Ertiga, XL6 come with torque converter gear box. Granted they are four speed automatic boxes, but, not all models come with AMT.


They appear to be focused on capturing the high profit pools versus capturing market-share.
Some of these might help understand this concept in business:
https://hbr.org/1998/05/profit-pools...ok-at-strategy
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjo...h=7ed40e3961bb
How sustainable is it, is open for discussion, and is often raised about Apple's long term success as well. But, not entirely a wrong approach to running a business.

It goes back to the reliability factor. If one needs long term reliability without a significant compromise on fuel efficiency, CVT boxes are the way to go.

Sometimes, companies make business decisions, which might not always be aligned to the popular opinion.
GTO's comment in the following thread provides more background to the decision. It's quite likely a business decision made in the light of the end of subsidies from the local government.
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...factory-4.html

I for one am glad they are not. The deterioration in quality and increasing cost of ownership has been pointed out on multiple threads on this forum.
Examples:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-response.html
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...kia-sonet.html

While I do long for more models to be launched by these players, I also understand some of these nuances and don't take an entirely critical view of these players.
Just an alternate view-point to the critical view taken of the Japanese players.

I don't think the narrative of culture fits. Honda has been discontinuing models left and right. Nobody feels that sense of continuity buying any of the Honda cars any more (other than City and Amaze). Toyota also hasn't been doing that great except for Innova, Fortuner and maybe Camry in terms of stability and predictability. Nissan also doesn't offer any stable line up.

Ecosport, Duster, Creta, Seltos, Compass, Thar, etc. have all been sold in good numbers. Maruti would have done exceptionally well with Jimney and Grand Vitara etc. There is no decent Japanese alternative in this csuv/suv segment which is the most happening segment for the last several years.

I think the title of the thread is justified.

Remember that lazy kid from school. Maybe he was not lazy. He could be daydreaming or having a hard time at home or scarred by some past experience. These Japanese brands too could be going through something like that. What about past experiences with changing laws and policies without any consistency. Also they cant just bring about other global products directly unless compromised on some aspect which might backfire on their global reputation. However, at the end of the day no one is interested in their pity state and these brands have to reinvent themselves.

I wouldn't call Suzuki exactly lazy. He knows his limits globally and yet delivers what our market demands. He also does homework for the rich kid 'Toyota'. 'Toyota' comes from a rich family and hence the relaxed attitude. He knows he comes from old money and need not be bothered. Honda is that silent kid in class who could be a genius ? who knows ? Nissan is that kid who studies at the last moment before the exam or does homework just before the teacher comes. His latest assignment 'Magnite' has been submitted at the last moment and I heard it is good. :)

I recall GTO's statement somewhere which goes like "There is no problem that a good SUV/crossover cannot solve" . It is high time these brands drag themselves out of their self pity and reinvent themselves. Do a KIA ! Better do a Tata. Look where Tata was and look where they are now despite having just a small market globally.

At the present condition of these Japanese Car Manufacturers I would agree with what the OP has stated. But I am not sure if Lazy is the word I would use. Perhaps the picture below might paint a better picture :D

Well, I had the same thoughts on seeing the Jan 2021 car sales thread:
The Japanese manufactures are where the money is - lower segments. When MSIL can dominate 50% of the market with their product portfolio, who needs innovation? :uncontrol:Frustrati

Also, Toyota/Honda has burnt their fingers trying 'India specific' cars - Honda Brio, Toyota Etios etc. I don't expect a Toyota RAV4 or a Honda CR-V to be sold in India, but the Japanese manufacturers have missed the boat with the crossover challenging the Creta/Seltos and another challenging the Safari/XUV 500/Hector (Innova Crysta is not direct competition).

Don't know what is SO tough, especially in a country with barely any decent standards specified, where there are terrible consumer protection legislations & which scores quite poorly on enforcement of contracts !

A company like Kia Motors hit profitability within 15 months, and got/get away with using sub-standard materials.

IMO "Lazy" is but too kind a word to describe the Japanese companies mentioned by OP.

I wouldn’t really term these as Lazy. They’re underwhelming in Indian context, but not so bad in the international scene, especially Toyota. I guess when the idea of mass-production and volumes doesn’t work in a specific market, they give it a cold-shoulder. That’s why you don’t see the new Corolla in the Indian market, and same goes for Suzuki Jimny, Vitara, Swift Sport etc.

If the Japs are lazy (that's the last thing I'd call this hard working Nation) why doesn't it apply to (tiny developing Nations) Thailand, Indonesia etc - where the full product portfolio is made available? The answer lies in India's confusing policy. They're not able to plan long time