[chiranjitp]

Originally Posted by harishpr

I fully support the government taxing more for older vehicles.

First of all I am saddened to see such a post in a car forum, where we (I suppose not all now) live & breathe cars.

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -

• It’s less fuel efficient
• No safety features
• Pollutes environment lot more

With so many drawbacks, why should anyone encourage older vehicles.

Fuel efficiency depends from car to car, a M800 is more fuel efficient than most hatchbacks on sale now. Safety is a personal thing, if I want to travel in an unsafe car, it's my own decision. Also remember India is the world's largest 2 wheeler market & any 4 wheeler is safer than a 2 wheeler.

I say, Tax even more. Perhaps, a lakh for a 2 wheeler and 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler.

So you are suggesting people to pay 3 lakhs tax for a 20 year old Maruti that is worth 20-30k . Remember in India, car penetration level is still very low, so any car (no matter how old) will have some use in India. Even in developed countries there is no ban on older cars, despite the fact that they can financially afford to scrap them all (& replace with newer cars).

Another thing is the emotional attachment & historical importance of these old cars. Some of us are very emotionally attached to our old cars & have spent more than the value of the car in keeping them running without any hesitation.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

A draft is appended herewith which may please be edited according to your choice. But please positively send as many representations for the cause.

Thanks a ton Anjan. I just sent my email. Ever since this notification came out, I was wondering why such an activity was not initiated here in TBHP. I have seen some scattered efforts in faceboook groups but nothing like what could be achieved by TBHP reach.

As I compost this post, I am in currently restoring my dad's 1994 Vijay Super Mark-2 scooter.

My other jewels are - Dad's first scooter - 1976 Vijay Super, Family's first car - 1989 Premier Padmini. Both in pristine condition. 2 Kinetic Honda's in running condition but require cosmetic touches.

One other point I would like to make is - there should not be any misconception that folks like me are all rich brats doing such stuff for Insta clicks. I am a salaried individual and slog night shifts to make a living. I do carry all responsibilities of running a middle class family.

In fact my vehicles for daily drives are all bare basic set of wheels. I rather chose to invest more in upkeep of the above vehicles. No way I can find the words to explain why I want to do that.

Mods - Is there a way we can add a counter to this post that can be clicked by members who have sent an email. Would give a rough estimate of the number of responses that have gone out.

Also, hope this thread is not seen as a "toolkit"

Originally Posted by harishpr

I fully support the government taxing more for older vehicles.

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -

• It’s less fuel efficient
• No safety features
• Pollutes environment lot more

With so many drawbacks, why should anyone encourage older vehicles.

I say, Tax even more. Perhaps, a lakh for a 2 wheeler and 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler.

If not for TBHP platform, I would have asked this --> Why is this post still not taken down and the author banned!

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by harishpr

I fully support the government taxing more for older vehicles.

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -

• It’s less fuel efficient
• No safety features
• Pollutes environment lot more

With so many drawbacks, why should anyone encourage older vehicles.

I say, Tax even more. Perhaps, a lakh for a 2 wheeler and 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler.

You have to be kidding me!!!!

Just went through your profile and if you havent updated it yet, it says you own a 2010 Cruze, which itself is 11 years old now, so will you pay 3 lakhs to retain it????

And drawbacks; give me a break; are all old cars bullock carts?
My 25 Year old car makes as much power from a 2.2 NA Petrol as much as your Cruze does from a 2.0L turbo diesel, is fairly efficient; and probably is safer than your Cruze too!!!!!

Just because any car is old, doesn't mean its unsafe or less efficient than every new car on road.

[tacho9000]

Originally Posted by harishpr

I fully support the government taxing more for older vehicles.

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -

• It’s less fuel efficient
• No safety features
• Pollutes environment lot more

With so many drawbacks, why should anyone encourage older vehicles.

I say, Tax even more. Perhaps, a lakh for a 2 wheeler and 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler.

I hope you've had your two minutes of fame and publicity represented duly.

Now let me bring you back to reality. In India the percentage of people living vs percentage of people paying taxes is a joke at less than even 5%. First look at that figure. Then I'll tell you that in India car penetration is absymally low. And due to the combination of these two factors, people sometimes cannot dispose of old cars just like that. And are hence maintained duly and with all papers updated and set right. Imagine someone who has bought a car in 2001 at say 4lac rupees and having retired in 2012 is now surviving on a pension of say 25000rupees per month. Considering how sharply the prices of every daily necessities has gone upward do you think they'll be able to dispose off the now 20year old car just like that and buy a new car for a monthly driving total of under 600kilometres without getting almost drained of their limited financial capacities. Think long and hard about that. I drive a 21yr old more than a lac kilometres run Maruti 800. Even now when I go to the PUC centre for tests, people get shocked as to how come my car passes through these ever stringent tests without a hiccup. I've tried my best in keeping the car maintained because I love my car. On the other hand I have seen countless yellow plated and more than just a handful of white plated vehicles which are far younger in age to many older cars belching out smoke and/or kept in such poor condition that they've to be coerced into just scraping by the PUC tests. And some even don't have all updated papers.

One more thing as @chiranjitp has mentioned is a lot of the poor people buy these older cars and use for their commutes in remote areas as a safer alternative to using their two wheelers. Do you actually want them to go back to using their trusty but still relatively much unsafe motorcycles for travelling long distances. Would you do that if that was the option given to you over your car with air conditioning. Think first of the general population and then make such a statement. I find your statement kiddish and devoid of any sense much like the bureaucrats of our country. Get some insight into the ground reality of the present situation of the country as a whole before making such a statement next time.

Regards,
Subhra

[ads295]

Thank you for this post. I sent the email after adding my own details and 1 point - which I will mention below.

The argument that the world is better rid of older cars just because they pollute more is flawed in a big way - it does not at all consider the carbon footprint involved in manufacturing an entirely new vehicle from scratch! I own a manufacturing business and let me tell you, the carbon emissions involved in building an entire vehicle is enormous! Who has factored in the emissions involved in the ENTIRE automotive supply chain, starting from the melting of scrap into castings and forgings? Who has factored in the fact that cars today contain SO MUCH MORE plastics than they did decades ago, all of which may never be recycled? This is the single biggest reason you don't see million mile Hyundai/Tata cars! Who is taking apart each car and studying how long it is built to last vs how planned the obsolescence is? Think of how much carbon emissions a second hand buyer saves when they buy stuff, and I don't mean just cars - bikes, bicycles, books, electronics, furniture, ANYTHING counts. From nature's point of view, anything second hand is basically FREE!

It is a very myopic view to simply say "Old vehicles -> tailpipe emissions bad => old vehicles bad."

[pugram]

This is indeed draconian.

It's the engine that pollutes. A stringent emissions check will reveal the health and owners can proceed accordingly. I hope the govt will accept if a BS3 Car meets the emissions standards for BS3.

On a side note, as an option, why doesn't the Govt allow for engine upgrades. Manufacturers can provide 'Crate' engines and kits for popular cars so that they can upgrade to the latest norms. I think old shell plus new engine will be cost effective compared to scrapping old car and buying new one. This will also provide employment opportunities for a lot of people.

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by harishpr

I fully support the government taxing more for older vehicles.

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -

• It’s less fuel efficient
• No safety features
• Pollutes environment lot more

With so many drawbacks, why should anyone encourage older vehicles.

I say, Tax even more. Perhaps, a lakh for a 2 wheeler and 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler.

I have 5 cars at home at present. Two of them will turn 20 this year, One turns 15 next month and one is 16 year old.

I keep them in good nick and can say for a fact that they are much better to drive than today's so called modern cars. While I will not debate the safety aspect, but rather than focus on proper infra, this hare-brained scrappage policy will help no one but the government and the automobile manufacturers.

Its clearly a result of a very successful lobbying by the car makers. Consider this - It has been more than 5 years since Delhi banned 10 year old diesels and 15 year old petrol cars. What is the level of pollution there? In winters, I will consider myself lucky to breathe without the aid of an oxygen cylinder.

I don't mind paying the tax if it will give me any thing in return. How about free tolls for classic cars? Or free parking? But if I'm paying more tax on my 20 year old car than my neighbour who bought a 6-lakh rupee car, does it makes any sense?

Last but not the least, cars are an integral part of India's history and if govt. can take the pains to take care of it, let us enthusiasts handle it to the best of our abilities without creating further hindrance.

[windrider]

Originally Posted by harishpr

I fully support the government taxing more for older vehicles.

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -

• It’s less fuel efficient
• No safety features
• Pollutes environment lot more

With so many drawbacks, why should anyone encourage older vehicles.

I say, Tax even more. Perhaps, a lakh for a 2 wheeler and 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler.

Okay, i will scrap my old car, but first, why dont you or the govt buy
me a new car then? At present I own a 2014 alto k10. It has done barely 22k kms in this time and by the looks of worsening traffic, horrible city roads of kerala and rising fuel costs, it is going to see even fewer kms in the coming years. So in about 15 years, my car would do about 50k kms at the most which is nothing when compared to people clocking 15-20k km a year. Why should I be forced to scrap a perfectly fine car and then shell out more money for another overpriced tin can? How is this helping the environment? Did the govt consider how much energy is required, and how much greenhouse gases are emitted to convert raw materials to a finished car and then transport them to the customer? The state govts cant even manage to deal with domestic waste disposal and recycling, how are they even going to properly implement this scrappage policy? This new ruling is just a way to boost tax revenue and force the public to part with their hard earned money. The yearly income of most indians is not at such a level that we can afford a new car every 15 years. The people in power have been living luxuriously on the public's money for too long that they have lost all touch with reality.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by harishpr

I fully support the government taxing more for older vehicles.

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -

• It’s less fuel efficient
• No safety features
• Pollutes environment lot more

With so many drawbacks, why should anyone encourage older vehicles.

I say, Tax even more. Perhaps, a lakh for a 2 wheeler and 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler.

Yes. True. Going with what you started I'm proposing that the government start collecting even more tax the moment you finish purchasing your car - because fuel efficiency is relative, and I propose that any vehicle that uses fuel cannot be termed efficient. So before you fill any fuel you must be held responsible for wasting fuel and taxed.

Unsafe - Hope you've read Ralph Naders "Unsafe at any speed" - so, in your own interest, our paternalistic government should make it impossible for you to hurt yourself and others - what better way than to keep you still? Tax so that you cannot move your car.

Pollutes - Even your EV pollutes. No. Our government must protect us from polluters. Tax!

I suggest a tax of 25 times your life savings for a 4 wheeler and, why discriminate? Let's all pay as much as we can even if we want a 2 wheeler, so the same 25 multiple should apply no? Imagine all the services and infrastructure that the government could provide with that kind of revenue!

Why would anyone even want to own a car with so many drawbacks? I've proposed this many times - let's get atmanirbhar and adopt our beloved bullock carts as our primary means of transport. The benefits of a grass based economy would make us a real superpower. Finally.

[The Mechanic]

Originally Posted by harishpr

I fully support the government taxing more for older vehicles.

Let me tell you the following cases, these are not fictional people but actual people I know and you can find many other similar people, for reference they live in Kottayam or Idukki districts of Kerala. All these people use vehicles older than 15 years.

Person 1:- He is a small scale contractor/sub-contractor for civil work. He uses a Maruti Omni. He uses it to transport workers to and from work sites and also to transport small materials and equipment. This is also his personal family vehicle.

Person 2:- He is a painting contractor and he uses a CJ500DI “Jeep” to transport workers to and from work sites and also to transport materials and equipment. He also uses it as his personal vehicle.

Person 3:- He runs a small shop that rents items such as chairs, tables etc. for events and uses a CJ500DI “Jeep” to deliver and take back these items.

Person 4:- He is a small Cardamom planter and uses his CJ500DI “Jeep” to travel through his plantation, to carry stuff and manpower to and from places in the plantation where most modern vehicles cannot reach.

Person 5:- He is a medium scale rubber plantation owner and uses his CJ500DI “Jeep” to carry rubber sheet from plantation to drying unit, fire wood from his plantation to rubber drying unit, and then finally dried rubber sheet to local market for selling it.

Person 6 or rather a group:- So a few rubber tapping workers who are in charge of tapping a medium scale rubber plantation pooled money together and bought an old Maruti Omni to carry raw rubber from inside the plantation to processing/ storage unit so that it makes their life easier. They also use it for their personal use.

Person 7:- He is a mechanic. He has an TATA Indica that he uses as his RSA vehicle for his customers. When one of his customers has an issue on the road, he loads up necessary tools and drives to the spot. It is also the most immaculate condition Indica I have seen in my life

Person 8:- He is a taxi driver and uses his Mahindra Commander to transport people and goods from remote hilly areas.




A list like this can be endless you just have to open your eyes, observe and have some empathy.

Expecting any of the above people to buy new vehicles or spend high taxes or fees to renew the registration of their vehicles is not humane.

Originally Posted by harishpr

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -

• It’s less fuel efficient
• No safety features
• Pollutes environment lot more

With so many drawbacks, why should anyone encourage older vehicles.

I would argue that older vehicles are much less of a liability to environment (at least much less than they are made out to be)

Let me quote the example of my 1980 CJ500 D

Fuel efficiency – I can get around 12 Km/L of Diesel even though the vehicle has an IDI engine, and lots of heavy bits to make it capable off-road. I am pretty sure we can find new vehicles with similar capabilities having similar fuel efficiency numbers.


Safety features – Assuming the driver of an old vehicle has commonsense he/she will drive within its limits. Also, most old vehicles tend to have reasonable power figures. My CJ500D had 38 BHP and had a top speed of 72 KM/H when it was brand spanking new. So if we assume it lost 1 HP per year it is now at negative 3 HP . So the chances of me running into a crash at high speed is negligible.

Environmental Pollution – Total environmental pollution of a vehicle will be the sum of its embodied emission + operational emission. My CJ500D has already been produced hence its embodied emission has already taken place. If I replace it with a new car it will create extra pollution in the form of embodied emission of new car. Effective recycling can reduce effect of embodied emission but I don’t think recycling a car is that much effective. As far as operational emissions go older cars need simpler and less number of parts, also for older cars you can find used parts so emissions created my producing spare parts can be reduced. But I agree that tail pipe emission will be higher for older cars as they were designed to meet the regulations set at the time they were made.




Lots of people attach their cars to their memories such as


Car in which you had your first driving lesson
Car in which you took your new born kid home
Car in which you went on a picnic with your family
Car your parents or grandparents used
Car in which you got to drive in front of your high school crush
Car in which you drove your significant other home for the first time

The list is endless, you just have to have a heart big enough to understand it.


On a final note to who or whatever forces wants to take my CJ500D away from me and to the scrap yard my response to you is “TRY ME”

[Lowflyer23]

Originally Posted by harishpr

I say, Tax even more. Perhaps, a lakh for a 2 wheeler and 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler.

But man if you can change your cars so frequently and want the taxes to be 3 lakhs for a 4 wheeler then I think you can start distributing your immense wealth among the society. Isn't it our duty to give back to the society when we become so well to do? What better place to start than Team-BHP itself? Perhaps members can PM you the cars they'll like as gifts😊.

P.S. A BMW Alpina B7 for me!

[prajwalmr62]

The pollution caused by Shipping/Aviation/Construction is far more worse than few 15+ year old automobiles running around.

If you have ever driven in Bangalore with constructions happening left, right, and center you'll understand that that's where most of the dust and smoke is coming from, not cars.

It'd make sense to start there instead of just getting up one day and thinking of banning "unfit" vehicles. AFAIK, fuel efficiency of an old Ambassador is more or less equal to a brand new Alto.

[raghukodali]

I am little intrigued that we are sending out petitions to the government to pay less fees for the renewal of registration of 15 year old cars.

We, in Karnataka, pay anywhere between a few thousands to a few Lakhs more than the rest of the country as registration fees just to even buy a car.

Someone not able to afford a renewal fee after 15 years, in my opinion, is far less significant than someone not able to afford the registration fee to buy a car in the first place.

Also, I don't think the government is banning any cars as per this particular ruling, all the enthusiasts can keep all their cars for eternity as long as they pay a bit more.

[Artyom]

Just yesterday I was talking to my dad as to how to proceed with our Honda City 08 model which will soon be crossing the 15 years limit and should we sell it now or wait for the verdict.
This post came just in time and surely I have sent the email as others against this ruling.

[puneeth2]

I think getting badly maintained, polluting vehicles is good. Stimulating the auto sector by promoting new car sales is good as well. This is something similar to a policy introduced in USA. It was also known as 'Cash for Clunkers'

You can read all about it here:
Car Allowance Rebate System

If you'd rather watch/listen, check this video out:

https://youtu.be/HZAhq375Wmw

But before you begin throwing brickbats, hear me out.

My assessment:

Although I some of the thinking behind the vehicle scrappage policy is beneficial, I feel it is not beneficial for everyone involved. Especially people like us who care for our vehicles and are willing to spend to keep them in good shape.

I think it would've been better if the government had just imposed compulsary fitness test to prove the road worthiness of a vehicle and then rewarded the owners who are voluntarily willing to scrap their vehicles.

Punishing everyone to pay hefty amount to get the vehicles tested and then get them registered is just too harsh on us and the automotive scene in general. Forcing people to part ways with roadworthy vehicles is much more damaging to the environment, automotive heritage and the automotive scene.

I think governments can think of ways to reduce the dust and smoke in our cities, that would make much more sense and have a greater effect that this. I wonder why the city municipality cannot invest in machines to clean the streets, it's shameful.

I hope the government just considers this and makes amendments.