[chaudh2s]

How can an old fit vehicle be non polluting? The standards of emissions then and now are poles apart and if somebody wants to retain old vehicles for sentimental reasons they can store it inside, maintain it and occasionally take it to tracks on flatbeds to drive them like some exotics. Why pollute environment, every gm of co2 matters.

[vishy76]

Originally Posted by ads295

Thank you for this post. I sent the email after adding my own details and 1 point - which I will mention below.

The argument that the world is better rid of older cars just because they pollute more is flawed in a big way - it does not at all consider the carbon footprint involved in manufacturing an entirely new vehicle from scratch! I own a manufacturing business and let me tell you, the carbon emissions involved in building an entire vehicle is enormous! Who has factored in the emissions involved in the ENTIRE automotive supply chain, starting from the melting of scrap into castings and forgings? Who has factored in the fact that cars today contain SO MUCH MORE plastics than they did decades ago, all of which may never be recycled? This is the single biggest reason you don't see million mile Hyundai/Tata cars! Who is taking apart each car and studying how long it is built to last vs how planned the obsolescence is? Think of how much carbon emissions a second hand buyer saves when they buy stuff, and I don't mean just cars - bikes, bicycles, books, electronics, furniture, ANYTHING counts. From nature's point of view, anything second hand is basically FREE!

It is a very myopic view to simply say "Old vehicles -> tailpipe emissions bad => old vehicles bad."

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

How can an old fit vehicle be non polluting? The standards of emissions then and now are poles apart and if somebody wants to retain old vehicles for sentimental reasons they can store it inside, maintain it and occasionally take it to tracks on flatbeds to drive them like some exotics. Why pollute environment, every gm of co2 matters.

Please read the above quote. People who think old vehicles are polluting and hence should be scrapped are simply portraying a very myopic POV in my opinion. Who here has factored in the pollution caused due to:

- (Im)proper scrappage of the old vehicles

- The amount of pollution produced while building an entirely new one as ads295 has rightfully mentioned

I do agree old vehicles obviously won't emit less CO2 than the newer ones due to improvement in bharat stage norms, but that doesn't mean one goes through the hassle of scrapping an old vehicle and buying a new one altogether (if they can afford one that is, as rightfully pointed out by so many members before). Thus, these cannot be "flatbedded" around. The topic of discussion isn't with pertains to one off vintage cars or expensive classics only. It's for something as humble as a 20+ year old Maruti Zen or 800 which is still serving its owner well, a person who might not own another car after this one.

I would strongly suggest going through the entire thread once where members have put forth very valid points pertaining to the same, and not only limited to the post I have quoted above.

[landcruiser123]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Hence, owners, enthusiasts and well-wishers of the targeted 15-49 year old motor vehicles need to positively send representations within 30 days w.e.f. 15.03.2021 i.e. by 13.04.2021, the date of issue of the draft notification no. G.S.R. 191 (E) to comments-morth@gov.in, their designated email id for the purpose. Confirmation copy can be also sent to director-morth@gov.in, the Director (MVL). MVL stands for Motor Vehicle Legislation.

Won't a www.change.org petition work better? Using the petition, we can reliably track how many people actually vote for the cause.

Originally Posted by harishpr

Older vehicles are a big liability for the environment. -
-It’s less fuel-efficient
-No safety features

I think the first two points are mostly wrong. Let us compare two very popular cars: the Innova & Swift:
-City FE is the same, irrespective of the 2006 or 2021 models.
-There might be a significant gain in highway FE (taller gearing) of the '21 Innova, but a relatively small gain (if any) in FE for the '21 Swift.
-While the new Innova might be a little better (the difference is not night & day) than the old one in terms of safety, I don't think the new Swift is any safer than the old Swift. (Both models of the Swift probably have abysmal safety ratings)

-Pollutes environment lot more

The BS6 cars definitely pollute a little lesser than BS3 cars. But with long supply chains (bigger carbon footprint) and environmentally un-friendly manufacturing processes, a country is only externalizing the effects of pollution by forcing its citizens to ditch perfectly functioning old cars and upgrade to newer cars which aren't revolutionary by any stretch of the imagination.

I know a few people in Bangalore who use their old Zen, Esteem, and M 800s for 5000km a year. These people will most probably not buy a new car if they are forced to sell their rides.

[chiranjitp]

I would suggest you to go through the previous posts, regarding why this proposed hike in renewal fee is not a good idea.

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

How can an old fit vehicle be non polluting? The standards of emissions then and now are poles apart and if somebody wants to retain old vehicles for sentimental reasons they can store it inside, maintain it and occasionally take it to tracks on flatbeds to drive them like some exotics. Why pollute environment, every gm of co2 matters.

No one has argued that the old cars pollutes lesser, otherwise what's the point of all these BS (Bharat Stage) emission norms upgrade over the years. The point is that whether scrapping a perfectly working old car & replacing it with a new car (it takes resources to build a new car) is more polluting.

Even if we say that a new car is still overall lesser polluting, there is one more big point to consider, i.e the annual running done by 15-20 years old car on an average. Most people who can only afford to own such an old car, can't surely afford to do 20-30k km per annum (the running cost in such a scenario would eclipse the value of such an car within a few months). As for the people who keep them for sentimental value, they also (most of them) don't do heavy running in such old vehicles. I am sure overall CO2 emitted also depends on the distance a car runs. We own a 1999 Omni (which is BS I complaint), since it's so old & doesn't have any creature comfort, safety feature, it hardly runs 2-3k km per annum nowadays. The other car in our garage is a 4 year old BS IV complaint Ecosport, which I am sure emits lesser CO2 than the Omni. But the thing is that the Ecosport does 20k km annually compared to the 2k km of the Omni, so I am quite certain overall we pollute more with the Ecosport.

One more thing, the NGT ban has been in place in the NCR for some years now. I don't see the pollution levels going down after the ban. You are from Gurgaon. you would know better if there has been any change in pollution levels after the ban.

[Viraat13]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

Why pollute environment, every gm of co2 matters.

Okay, since you put it that way, let me ask you a few questions:

1. Have you replaced all your household appliances with 5 star rated ones for best energy efficiency? Remember, that includes multiple air conditioners, refrigerator, geysers, heaters, etc.
2. Your profile says you live in Gurgaon, safe to assume that 30-40% of your power in peak summers is provided by a diesel genset, do you indulge yourself and use your air conditioner or switch off everything so as to minimise your carbon footprint?
3. How about food, it is pretty well known that there is a significant carbon footprint if you eat meat - have you given it up? Naturally this won't apply if you are a vegetarian for religious reasons.
4. How about travel - do you take flights? Aeroplanes are probably the most polluting per person per mile, let's address that by getting you to travel by train as that will likely reduce your carbon footprint by 50% or more.
5. What about your home and office? Does it have many large windows? Every single window makes your air conditioning work that much harder to cool thereby increasing the consumption of electricity and your carbon footprint.
6. When was the last time you got fed up of a small gadget or appliance that wasn't working too well and decided to throw it away and buy a new one? Did you consider putting in any effort to get it repaired? If no, wrong move buddy, you didn't factor in the carbon footprint of manufacturing a new appliance, its packaging, transportation, etc.

When you talk of old polluting cars, do consider that an ill maintained 1 year old diesel will still pollute more than a well maintained older one. Also evaluate the environmental impact of manufacturing, it isn't all beautiful and green.

[bhargav2015]

Originally Posted by chaudh2s

How can an old fit vehicle be non polluting? The standards of emissions then and now are poles apart and if somebody wants to retain old vehicles for sentimental reasons they can store it inside, maintain it and occasionally take it to tracks on flatbeds to drive them like some exotics. Why pollute environment, every gm of co2 matters.

Your question has the answer embedded: old FIT vehicle. If its FITNESS is adjudged TODAY and adjudicated as FIT FOR RUNNING, *end of story*.
Don't EVEN GET ME STARTED ON CO2 EMISSIONS. It may be worth your while to Google what percentage of CO2 emissions in India come from LCVs.

[Sankar]

As if all of us were not already slaves to the economy engine this is forcing the obvious.

Buy>>Work>>Pay>>Buy>>Work>>Pay>>Buy
Work>>Save>>Buy>>Keepitforever or Buy>>Work>>Pay>>Keepitforever ??
No sir, toil harder to keep the economy engine running.

It has been proven many times over that maintaining and running older vehicles pollutes lesser. The environmental cost of making new cars (including EVs) is far higher than the damage done by older vehicles to the environment.


But...

There are a lot of unfit vehicles plying on the roads. Thanks to the corrupt system. That has to change.

[rohanhsaraf]

I have also sent mail on given id with my additional inputs.

Hope that government will put an amendment to it after all such pleas.

If nothing happens, my bike - Pulsar 2007 and car - Spark 2009 are going to face the consequences.

[pkk077]

SECTION A para (6) The total amounts as stated above in paras (1) and (5) inclusive of all new levies payable by old vehicle owners for fitness and re-registration thus works out to Rs 2400=00 for Indian motorcycles, Rs 11,500=00 for Imported motorcycles, Rs 13,300=00 for Indian cars and Rs 48,500=00 for Imported cars, once every five years. These amounts do not include any fines for delays. This is lawfully contrary to the principles of natural justice.

I think these are fairly reasonable charges to pay once every 5 years after 15/20 years. Given that for NCR, the only option today is to scrap/sell your vehicle after 10/15 years, what we always wanted was a way to determine if the vehicle is fit or not based upon a stringent test rather than age of the vehicle. If the govt. brings a policy where one pays a reasonable amount to ascertain vehicle fitness, I see a ray of hope in that for NCR vehicles as well (I know it doesn't apply to NCR today but given fairly accurate and tamper-proof fitness checking, my hope is this will reverse the NCR 10/15 year rule in future).

[utkarsh.shetty]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

Hence, owners, enthusiasts and well-wishers of the targeted 15-49 year old motor vehicles need to positively send representations within 30 days w.e.f. 15.03.2021 i.e. by 13.04.2021, the date of issue of the draft notification no. G.S.R. 191 (E) to comments-morth@gov.in, their designated email id for the purpose. Confirmation copy can be also sent to director-morth@gov.in, the Director (MVL). MVL stands for Motor Vehicle Legislation.

Done.

Let's try ro reach more people, do you think creating a petition on avaaz or other similar sites may help boost the reach?

[anjan_c2007]

My thanks and my deep sense of gratitude to teambhp and GTO for highlighting this thread in the HOT THREADS lineup.

Thanks to all the members and viewers (8673 views and 38 responses as of now) who have taken serious cognisance of some great and irreparable damage of an unheard of magnitude that is in the offing, due to some hare-brained, ill-intentioned and totally misguided by vested interests' acts of commission of all the concerned persons. The number of responses from all the concerned members is quite overwhelming and our objection, suggestion and the healthy discussion vindicates the cause. There are bound to be views favouring the hiked fees for and scrapping of old motor vehicles and that's healthy as all cannot think in unison, always ! However, the views of the majority will prevail. The draft notification of 15/03 that is being appealed against by all of us, with our objections and suggestions is within our constitutional framework. Only let us hope and pray that things will change for the better for us.

I would like to also thankfully acknowledge the help and guidance rendered by our city's renowned Advocate Anand Parchure, who is a senior to me in the High Court Bar. He owns some vintages, is a Member of our vintage association (Cent Ind Vintage Automotive Association (CIVAA)) and has himself volunteered to provide his Midas touch to the original application of mine, for a better appreciation and outcome.

Our friends owning vintages may also please note that this draconian notification of 15/03 is applicable for any private motor vehicle that is older than 15 years. Hence 15 to 100 or 100 plus year old motor vehicles are all within the ambit of this draft notification. True, they are going to amend the Motor Vehicles Act and Central Motor Vehicles Rules for 50 plus year old vintages, but there is no such amendment done as of now whatsoever. Hence, if before 01.10.2021 no amendment in the laws/rules for vintages are effected, all 15 plus year old motor vehicles will face the HIKED FEE AXE.

The draft notification includes commercial/ transport category vehicles which will all pay higher fees, but they have their own forums for redressal of their grievances. Their contentions and remedies prayed for could be much different from ours and it is hence wiser to adhere to facts and figures for private vehicles only.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Won't a www.change.org petition work better? Using the petition, we can reliably track how many people actually vote for the cause.

Thanks LC for your suggestion. But I am not sure as to the effectiveness of the change.org petitions. Have already signed (however, not initiated any so far) many of them ranging from environmental to wildlife to other societal issues. But not yet sure as to whether there was any change in the attitude of all the concerned.

[shibujp]

The fundamental problem here in everything now-a-days is that it is an extreme point of view either way.

Both the sides have valid points of view. Frankly my opinion is that the government in it's haste to bring this policy out does not care either about the environment or consider the merits of having people use a perfectly functioning 15 year old car. In these troubled times it is simply a mechanism to boost new car sales and there-by the economy which expending too much capital by way of "stimulus. That said...

A few of you have talked about examples where such cars form the backbone on which a business is run. Perhaps the policy should have a mechanism that if owners submit some sort of evidence they are provided more incentive to scrap their old vehicles and get a new one. Also there is perhaps a need for commercial variants of economy vehicles that car makers should look at. It's a niche in it's own right in Europe. For example why no a panel van variant of the Spresso?

Vintage vehicles should have a separate process itself in my opinion. I am sure that even now if the government were to put down it's foot, vintage owners would readily shell out the money to ensure that their babies are re-registered without any fuss.

A private owner who sees no reason to part with his perfectly running vehicle will definitely look at the pros and cons and then can decide whether to pay the re-registration costs for another 5 years or invest in a new car for the next 15 years.

I am sure these are not issues that are unique to India and every nation that has a scrappage policy has gone through this before. As such we are in a better position to see the pros and cons of their decisions leading to better solutions of our own.

Drive on,
Shibu

[Dry Ice]

Here is an example from UK.

Vehicles aged ~40 years are classified as historic and are exempt from paying annual tax + getting MOT certification.

I wonder what made them go the other way when EU is trying so hard to go carbon neutral. Surely, taxing these old vehicles to death is a good way to achieve that.

What is it that we are able to see, and they can't?

[ringoism]

Originally Posted by shibujp

Vintage vehicles should have a separate process itself in my opinion. I am sure that even now if the government were to put down it's foot, vintage owners would readily shell out the money to ensure that their babies are re-registered without any fuss.

A private owner who sees no reason to part with his perfectly running vehicle will definitely look at the pros and cons and then can decide whether to pay the re-registration costs for another 5 years or invest in a new car for the next 15 years.

I am sure these are not issues that are unique to India and every nation that has a scrappage policy has gone through this before. As such we are in a better position to see the pros and cons of their decisions leading to better solutions of our own.

Generally agreed.

As someone who has often driven (and preferred) older vehicles, while acknowledging some of the merits of newer machinery for the masses:

1. True vintage cars are hardly ever used, mainly are held by collectors, and as such cannot justly be charged the same road-taxes.

2. For the rest of us: Rs13,300 / 5 years for an older car works out to Rs2,600/year which while unwelcome is hardly exorbitant, certainly less expensive than purchasing and maintaining a new car / servicing loan interest. Most who can afford to drive/ maintain a car can afford this much, and I, for one, am just happy they're not doing total bans / mandatory scrappage nationwide (as Delhi NCR).

3. We should not be under any illusions that any of this is really going to make a difference in air quality. The data doesn't really support this assertion. Those rare "gross polluters", old and new - defective/ill-maintained vehicles - have been shown to create far more than their share of pollution in many/most international contexts, and I doubt it is much different here. For continuously run medium/heavy commercial vehicles, yes, it will probably make some impact. For private cars in decent condition, basically impossible that any effects will be measurable.

Case in point: I saw an almost new (BSIV or newer) Force Traveller van moving up towards Solang absolutely BILLOWING white/blue smoke just yesterday. I mean, creating a HUGE cloud over the entire road and surrounding vehicles. Obviously some major mechanical issue the owner/operator was not interested in correcting. I see this kind of thing pretty regularly, but the authorities at the Green Tax barrier in Bahang had of course not detained the vehicle or denied it entry into this ecologically sensitive area.

Sadly, business as usual.

-Eric

[kavesh55]

The traders protested against the GST for a long time. We know the farmer protests are ongoing. Inspite of the number of lives lost during the protest and agrarian population being a sizeable one, it is ignored.

The government is a mighty juggernaut and will not stop no matter who comes in the way.

I don't wish to be negative, but economics speak for itself. The registration cost of a new vehicle is 10-12 percent depending where you stay. For a used car it's a mere thousand rupees. Not to mention insurance, and the business a new car gets.

A huge infrastructure to scrap vehicles is being set up.

It saddens me, as old vehicles get me weak in the knees. I have owned right from a Premier Padmini, to Palio, to a w124 E220. Hope there is some light and wisdom to let our cars survive as they do today.