[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Recently we have discussed many improvements made by different brands in the last decade of the Indian Automotive Industry, and the various features that have become commonplace today - as compared to the luxury cars of the previous years! One common theme emerging in many a conversation is that people believe the recent past has been more about features than performance improvements - more bling than substance!

Not many appreciate the significant power to weight jump that has happened in modern cars! Hence this thread.

But wait, what am I talking about? Let's consider a few examples.

We all know 100 bhp/ton was considered a performance benchmark of the last decade. In fact, it was rare for even performance oriented cars to hit this magical number and most mass-market cars produced significantly less, mostly ranging between 70 - 80 bhp/ton. Let us consider some of our icons -

First generation Honda City 1.5 VTec - 106 bhp/985 kgs - 107.6 bhp/ton
Baleno 1.6 - 94 bhp / 975 kgs - 96.4 bhp/ton
Palio 1.6 Sports - 98.6 bhp / 1015 kgs - 97.1 bhp/ton.
Ford Ikon 1.6 - 90 bhp / 998kgs - 90.18 bhp/ton.
Honda Civic 1.8 - 130.19 bhp / 1210 kgs - 107.6 bhp/ton.

Now, compare this to some present-day mass-market cars -

Maruti Suzuki SPresso - 67.05 bhp / 726 kgs - 92.36 bhp / ton.
Maruti Suzuki WagonR 1.2 - 81.8 bhp / 830 kg - 98.6 bhp / ton.
Maruti Suzuki DZire - 88.5 bhp / 880kgs - 101.7 bhp/ton.
Hyundai Aura 1.0 - 99 bhp / 900 kgs - 110 bhp /ton.
Nissan Magnite - 99 bhp / 1014 kgs - 98 bhp / ton.

Yes, you read that right!

The SPresso of 2021 has a higher power to weight than the old Ford Ikon 1.6, the WagonR of 2021 beats the Palio 1.6 Sports and a Hyundai Aura of 2021 makes more power for its weight than the first generation Honda City VTec and the original Honda Civic! Modern cars have become faster, at least in a straight line!

100 bhp/ton - Is it the new normal of 2021? Lets take a look at the long list of cars that hit over the 100 bhp/ton mark in 2021! (PS: Not a complete list, some companies don't reveal proper weight figures and please pardon any errors in my math!).

Maruti Suzuki Swift 1.2 - 88.5 bhp/ 875 kgs = 101.14 bhp/ton.
Maruti Suzuki Baleno Smart Hybrid 1.2 = 88.5 bhp / 865kgs = 102.3 bhp/ton
Maruti Suzuki DZire 1.2- 88.5 bhp / 880kgs - 101.7 bhp/ton.
Maruti Suzuki Ciaz 1.5 - 103.2 bhp / 1015 kgs = 101.6 bhp/ton
Honda City 1.5 iVTec - 119 bhp/ 1107 kgs - 107.5 bhp/ton
Honda Amaze 1.5 Diesel - 99 bhp/993 kgs - 100 bhp/ton
Hyundai Creta 1.4 - 138bhp / 1323 kgs - 104 bhp/ton.
Hyundai Venue 1.0 TGDi - 118 bhp / 1095 kgs - 108 bhp/ton
Hyundai Aura 1.0 TGDi - 99 bhp / 900kgs - 110 bhp/ton
Hyundai i10 Nios 1.0 TGDi - 99 bhp / 900kgs - 110 bhp/ton
Hyundai i20 1.0 TGDi - 118.3 bhp / 1096 kgs - 107.9 bhp/ton
Ford Ecosport 1.5 Petrol - 121 bhp / 1188 kgs - 102 bhp/ton
Volkswagen Polo 1.0 TSi - 109bhp / 1092 kgs - 102 bhp/ton.
Kia Sonet 1.0 TGDi ~ 108 bhp/ton (Assuming same as Hyundai Venue 1.0 TGDi)
Kia Seltos 1.4 TGDi ~ 104 bhp/ton (Assuming same as Hyundai Creta 1.4 TGDi)
Renault Duster 1.3 - 154 bhp / 1291 kgs - 119 bhp/ton.
MG Hector 2.0 Diesel - 168bhp / 1618 kgs - 104 bhp/ton.
Jeep Compass 2.0 Diesel - 171 bhp / 1537 kgs - 111 bhp/ton.

Maybe yes, maybe not - but surely there is no denying that modern-day cars have significantly higher power/weight benchmarks than the cars from the previous decade. No matter which segment you choose from - hatchbacks, compact sedans, C sedans, crossovers, C crossovers etc - there is a 100 bhp/ton mass-market car available for your selection! And there are many more that come really close to this benchmark.

Funnily enough - we can thank fuel efficiency and emission norms for this! Resulting in -

• Less weight
• More efficient engines catering to BS6 norms
• Turbo-charged small motors.

Something for us enthusiasts to rejoice?

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Three factors are obvious

1. The advent of modern turbo petrol engines in the sub 10L segment. These engines bring power and torque figures previously unimaginable in this segment. The Aura or Altroz turbo petrol are more powerful than the erstwhile diesel Corolla Altis.

2. The ever reducing kerb weights. People complained the 700 something kg Nano was too light to be a ‘proper’ automobile. Trust Maruti to take it a step or two further. Seriously doubt if there is any proper four door four wheeler anywhere in the world that is lighter than the S Presso. Of course, this end of the market remains unperturbed by the shameful crash test ratings.

3. 150-170hp is now par for course in the 17-25L range, along with proper 6 and 7 speed automatic transmissions. A decade ago, these specs were found only in high end German machinery. You had the Honda Accord at 140 odd bhp, and then there were the C Class and 3 Series at 170-180. Today, we can get a Duster with an actual 155hp Mercedes engine and CVT automatic for 14L. Or 170hp Harrier with a modern 6 speed AT for 19L. This was Audi Q5 territory not too long back.

[Researcher]

Surprisingly, had not really thought about this at all. I can safely say that our Baleno 1.2 picks up pace quite more eagerly than my SX4 1.6. However, barring a few cars in the list, I will personally not be confident to push the newer cars around as I have not had a good experience with most modern steerings compared to slightly older ones.

We can definitely thank emissions and modern tech trickling down from far more expensive machines as mentioned above, without even compromising on running costs in most cases.

Slightly off-topic, but tighter emissions has reduced the power output of the F8D in the Alto in BS6 compared to BS4. If I recall, same happened with Pajero SFX in the BS3 to BS4 conversion. Nevertheless, barring a few exceptions, most have had same or higher outputs.

[turbo]

No surprise almost all the cars in the opening post are from Maruti Suzuki.

Maruti does make some very refined, decently powerful engines, with very light bodies. Again, a lot of people don't like them, and call them various names, and then go buy a dreadfully slow Tiago, and proudly say "its our country's iron".

And then there are people like me, who buy a swift, refined agile, and light-weight.

Infact I joke, that I bought a swift because Maruti's the only company that does weight-reduction from the factory itself.
That's why they don't really need a motorsport division like AMG or M.





As the saying goes, different strokes for different folks.

[ruzbehxyz]

The SPresso of 2021 has a higher power to weight than the old Ford Ikon 1.6, the WagonR of 2021 beats the Palio 1.6 Sports and a Hyundai Aura of 2021 makes more power for its weight than the first generation Honda City VTec and the original Honda Civic! Modern cars have become faster, at least in a straight line!

Your observation for power to weight ratio is absolutely correct. However I would keep the Marutis out of the equation due to construction material. Won't go down that road, as that is extensively discussed here and online. Can't compare the WagonR to the Palio, obviously due to tougher construction the Palio is heavier.

[V.Narayan]

Thank you for tabling this as a thread to stimulate debate.

Before I express my views I'll confess I am guilty more than most for going for powerful cars. <emoji holding his ears>

From the point of view of conservation of {scarce} energy, limiting dangerous air pollution this trend is counter productive to mother earth and flies in the face of rational thinking. To move 4 humans and 50 kgs of luggage at 80 kmph we do not need 100bhp/ton. Even a regional turboprop airliner needs only 250 to 300 bhp/tonne!!

For terrestrial travel we need {my educated guess} no more than 20 or 25 bhp per tonne even less. But all that extra bhp is to fulfill our ego needs, our desire for power, our need for speed & vroom-vroom. If we look back at the family cars of the 1940s and 1950s most had 30 to 50 bhp engines and they did the job of transporting a family comfortably. In every other mode of transportation {airliners, railways, trucks, ships}, due to technology, a given quantum of power is transporting a greater number of passengers or weight of cargo than 50 years ago or moving it much faster, all except in the personal automobile sector.

As future generations take over who I believe will be more green conscious than we are this trend, in my assessment, will reverse. The interests of enthusiasts may not be in line with the interests of society and mother earth.

[Turbohead]

This is honestly scary!

100bhp/tone for first time drivers who would've mostly gone to some shady driver's training will only cause more deaths in the streets and result in more meaningless rules and ridiculously low speed limits across the country.

This is seriously alarming! With more power comes more responsibility and proper training of drivers has truly become the need of the hour.

In 2019 alone, about 1.5 lakh people have died in road accidents. That's about half of the total deaths in India caused due to Covid according to the official numbers. And unlike the pandemic, these numbers will continue to rise if no actions are taken( assuming there is an eventual end to the pandemic).

Sorry for going off topic. I don't see this as a good thing.

[Emvi]

Nice compilation!
I believe even the modern day MPVs have improved considerably in this regard, especially Innova and Ertiga. If we look at the previous generation Innova and Ertiga, the power to weight ratios were around the 70-75 mark. The present generation models of both the cars have power to weight ratios around the 90 mark, if I am not wrong. Now coming to Marazzo, which of-late has been the talk of the town, the power to weight ratio is in mid 70s, which seems below par given the competition.

[maxratul]

While the raw power increase is welcome in my opinion, I wish that the driving dynamics of a lot of the cars mentioned do not show the same growth/maturity. Beyond the aesthetics of driving, this leads to serious safety risks which has been touched upon before in the thread.
In the future, with electric vehicles becoming more prominent, I feel this trend is going to hold and become even more prominent thanks to the insta-torque feeling of this class. However, imo by then government will put in a mandatory speed limiter rule.

[apachelongbow]

100 bhp/tonne is not really reflective of solid performance. If we consider the 0-100 kmph figure of most of the modern cars, they fall in between 12.x till 14.x seconds. The engines may be high bhp, but sometimes the gearing is medicore, sometimes the torque is wheezy. A 2021 baleno is not faster than a 2005 honda city 1.5 VTEC.
The kick in the pants acceleration is better measured by torque/ton rather than bhp/ton.

[anb]

But if you consider the performance of vehicles in 2021, you will be rather disappointed especially in 10-20 lakhs category. In early 2010's powerful D segment sedans were available. Laura, Jetta with 2.0 TDI, Cruze,Laura 1.8, Polo 1.5/1.6 TDI, Vento 1.6 TDI, Fiesta 1.6 etc. There is no such cars available now. The fastest car being the Seltos 1.4 turbo petrol.

[rajivr1612]

Along with bhp/ton one needs to look at N-m/ton as well.
What good is a sub-100 bhp/ton if the torque is in sub 10s?
Or is there a relation (thumb rule) between the minimum N-m/ton required to give weight to the higher bhp/ton?
The reason I ask is my present drive is Liva Diesel with below nos.:
Bhp/ton : 67/1010 = 66 bhp/ton
N-m/ton : 170/1010 = 17 N-m/ton
The ratio of bhp/ton to N-m/ton = 4

Now I am looking to buy Honda Jazz for which the values are:
Bhp/ton : 88/1078 = 83 bhp/ton
N-m/ton : 110/1078 = 10 N-m/ton
The ratio of bhp/ton to N-m/ton = 8

Clearly it does not match with my present drive experience of Liva.

A lower ratio would give a better driving experience with a good combination of power and torque. Of course the rpm range for power and torque is also important as is the gearing.

Does this make sense?

[Emvi]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

100 bhp/tonne is not really reflective of solid performance. If we consider the 0-100 kmph figure of most of the modern cars, they fall in between 12.x till 14.x seconds. The engines may be high bhp, but sometimes the gearing is medicore, sometimes the torque is wheezy.

I agree with you on these counts.

The kick in the pants acceleration is better measured by torque/ton rather than bhp/ton.

Even this parameter solely cannot be linked to better acceleration figures. For example, with 350 nm of torque, Hector probably has one the highest torque/ton ratios. Although Hector is no slouch, it is definitely not among the quickest. In fact, there are quite a few cars with torquey diesel mills with relatively higher torque/ton ratios but not necessarily super quick. As you have mentioned, it's not about just one parameter, the package matters. Higher bhp and torque coupled with suitable gearing among other factors(aerodynamics etc.,) ensure higher or better acceleration.

[Torquedo]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Not many appreciate the significant power to weight jump that has happened in modern cars! Hence this thread.

Something for us enthusiasts to rejoice?

Wawwww, Calls for a party, Yayyyyyyy. A quarter into the 21st century and we are rejoicing 100HP/Ton and most of it contributed to -

Tins cans from Maruti, it's the weight that we are seeing those figures, a 1500 kgs with 100 HP/ton are still few and far between and if there be, an overstretch for a normal Indian.

Would you trade an Espresso for an Ikon or a Wagon R for a Palio 1.6 ?

In the Western world, these are numbers that dated in the 60s - 70s, we are a good half a century behind.

I owned a carb '85 GPz 900R in 2015, 30 years old and boy was it fun, in similar lingual, superbikes are still way better off in India and can be rejoiced, ever since Yamaha came in 2007-08.

4 wheels is a hopeless situation, till you look at 340i or a polestar, launched and buried.

Please for heaven's sake, there is nothing to rejoice about these figures.