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Old 15th December 2022, 17:59   #1
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Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

According to a recent article on Autocar Indiahttps://www.autocarindia.com/car-new...il-2023-426648, a whole host of passenger vehicles (some of) which have so far been in high demand, are due to be taken off the market in April 2023.

These include the Nissan Kicks, the petrol variant of the Toyota Innova Crysta, the already-missing-from-the-market Alturas G4, and interestingly, the Skoda Octavia and Superb.

The carmakers are getting ready to stop the sales of such models citing reasons such as already low sales which negate the benefit of investing time and effort into bettering the emissions of their engines.

Most diesel engined cars which moved to the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) method of emissions control (read as AdBlue, AdBlue, AdBleh) are considered to be safe from the upcoming emissions norm implementation.
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Old 15th December 2022, 20:15   #2
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

Emission norms are to protect each and every citizen, irrespective whether you are a car owner or driver. It is a small but necessary step to create a better environment for all. I am not so sure why that would be considered evil?

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Old 16th December 2022, 20:51   #3
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

RDE norms will bring in real world emissions testing to engines, rather than laboratory scale, non ideal testing setups where engines can "cheat" the system. This will seperate the good, the bad and the ugly. It's a welcome move, and not an evil one for sure!

Last edited by reppy : 16th December 2022 at 20:53.
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Old 17th December 2022, 07:39   #4
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

As far as I know, the current version only has LNT, which is less efficient supposedly. Has Hyundai planned to modify their 1.5 CRDE engine to include SCR ? . If not, I am curious to understand why the same engine design is unfit for an i20 but fit to continue on the Creta post 2022.
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Old 17th December 2022, 09:32   #5
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhdowntheline View Post
As far as I know, the current version only has LNT, which is less efficient supposedly. Has Hyundai planned to modify their 1.5 CRDE engine to include SCR ? . If not, I am curious to understand why the same engine design is unfit for an i20 but fit to continue on the Creta post 2022.
This is because i20 diesel penetration is just 10% vs Creta where it is more than 50%. And considering the price increase these modifications will attract, the penetration is going to further drop only.

Then it doesn't make sense as a business offer a product line for limited set of customers in a mass market brand.
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Old 17th December 2022, 11:06   #6
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

Glad regulation is catching up. Living in America for the past 5 years has made me realize the value of clean air - 2022 vacations in India were a shock with hazy skies(Bangalore & Mumbai).

RDE shows you how many brands have been exploiting the 'gray zone' for more than 2 decades - BS1 came into effect in 2000 IIRC. Hope ANY of these cars didn't use the defeat devices a certain German Manufacturer used.

Last edited by landcruiser123 : 17th December 2022 at 11:08.
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Old 17th December 2022, 11:23   #7
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

When viewed in isolation "Real Driving Emissions" or RDE norms are definitely good and not evil since laboratory conditions almost never exist in the real world. For example, VAG's dieselgate is still fresh in the public memory.

However, when RDE norms are viewed collectively as a part of total emissions, then gross discrimination is clearly visible. RDE norms can be considered as a way of oppressing/looting ordinary car buyers by taking away their choices and forcing them to get rid of their old cars irrespective of their condition. When it comes to total emissions, industrial emissions cannot be ignored where the Government of India has actually relaxed emission norms. It can be argued that car owners/buyers were made the scapegoat to compensate for the increased emissions by industries.

Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?-emissions-norms-diluted.png

Link : https://thewire.in/government/pollut...g-with-diluted

Even ethanol was "allegedly" introduced/increased to favour some political person/nel holding important ministerial charges who had their family involved in making sugar where the waste from those factories could be used to make ethanol.

The Government of India also increased taxes by a huge margin on solar panels so that people keep buying the cheaper but polluting coal-powered thermally generated electricity instead of installing the cleaner and greener solar panels in their homes.



It is common knowledge that industrialists are the primary sponsors of political parties. Hence, in the larger context of overall pollution, RDE norms can definitely be considered as evil since the actual intention was, is and will continue to be making money and not actually curbing pollution.

Personally, I feel that if everyone contributed equally towards curbing emissions then RDE norms would have definitely been a welcome move.

Last edited by Chhanda Das : 17th December 2022 at 11:28.
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Old 17th December 2022, 12:21   #8
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chhanda Das View Post
- However, when RDE norms are viewed collectively as a part of total emissions, then gross discrimination is clearly visible.

- Personally, I feel that if everyone contributed equally towards curbing emissions then RDE norms would have definitely been a welcome move.
- While every action can be associated with a controversy or maybe it just is true but the objective to switch to ethanol blend like in many countries was to reduce the oil imports. A majority of the sugar mills have been owned by politicians/industrialists like many other factories/industries in our country. So any decision is bound to benefit some of them. Whether there was some backdoor deal involved or not is not something I am not eligible/don't intend to comment on but the idea that ethanol blending being introduced to favour sugar mill owners seems too far fetched IMHO.
It is an established method being used in many countries.

The solar panels taxation increase was done with the overall increase in taxes towards Chinese imports to favour local manufacturing IIRC but I have scant info on the subject to reason further.

- Absolutely agree, we must approach the problem of pollution holistically and driven by real world data rather than populist moves. That being and according to my knowledge, the automotive sector has been the most receptive to emission controls so probably the low hanging fruit is plucked first. Also automobiles are perceived as "polluting" in the cities where the center of pollution sensitivity usually lies, so doing anything here earns some brownie points.
But like you mentioned without a holistic solution this seems unfair. Like I feel when I renew my PUCC with negligible values and then face a diesel (auto/car/SUV) depositing some soot on my face to let the reality sink in

Last edited by shancz : 17th December 2022 at 12:23. Reason: typos
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Old 17th December 2022, 12:58   #9
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
the objective to switch to ethanol blend like in many countries was to reduce the oil imports
The government had removed subsidies from oil which begs the question as to why did the government care about the volume of oil being imported ? The public was supposed to pay international rates for the oil and yet we are being forced to pay heavily taxed rates despite international rates going down. Hence the idea is not to reduce oil imports but to maximize tax loot despite whatever story the government wants to feed us. If the government wanted to minimize oil imports then it would have pushed for cheaper electric vehicles and cheaper solar panels. Moreover, ethanol damages older engines which would need to be replaced earlier leading to a reduction in the citizens' wealth. Moreover, since more vehicles would need to be produced, producing them would cause more pollution as well

Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
but the idea that ethanol blending being introduced to favour sugar mill owners seems too far fetched IMHO.
Sadly, I cannot agree with this but I cannot elaborate further here either for fear of violating our Team-Bhp rules against political content. Correlating the geographical locations of the sugar mills and the political dispensation in those States/U.T.s should provide you with some idea of the sugar mafia in India.

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Originally Posted by shancz View Post
The solar panels taxation increase was done with the overall increase in taxes towards Chinese imports to favour local manufacturing IIRC.
That is what the government said to assuage the public. Solar cells are largely produced in China and very little is produced in India. Taxes on Indian cells were increased too although not as much as Chinese ones. Increased taxes on solar cells pushed up prices of solar panels considerably which drove down demand which resulted in the near total stoppage of new small scale solar installations which would have been critical in helping people adopt EVs faster since our current electrical grids are not even capable of meeting our current home demands. The sales of inverters and home batteries should provide an indication of the energy crisis. In such situations, EVs seem like distant dreams. If the government wanted to increase solar adoption then it could have reduced taxes on Indian cells/panels but it chose to do the contrary with the increased allocation of coal mines and coal extraction limits
to industrialists for thermal power generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shancz View Post
when I renew my PUCC with negligible values and then face a diesel (auto/car/SUV) depositing some soot on my face to let the reality sink in
Sadly, it is like a non-smoker being forced to smoke passively due to the smoker walking at the front

Last edited by Chhanda Das : 17th December 2022 at 13:09.
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Old 17th December 2022, 13:46   #10
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chhanda Das View Post
1. If the government wanted to minimize oil imports then it would have pushed for cheaper electric vehicles and cheaper solar panels.
2. Moreover, since more vehicles would need to be produced, producing them would cause more pollution as well
3. Sadly, I cannot agree with this but I cannot elaborate further here either for fear of violating our Team-Bhp rules against political content.
4. Solar cells are largely produced in China and very little is produced in India.
1. Good point although the oil imports also have strategic complexities involved but will stop here owing to point 3.

2. Agree, I hold the same view, hence I always stress on the holistic impact assessment driven by real world data.

3. Ditto on the disagreement and Ditto on the rules

4. Thanks for that info, had very little info on that topic

Last edited by shancz : 17th December 2022 at 13:47. Reason: spacing for better readability
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Old 17th December 2022, 13:58   #11
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

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Originally Posted by landcruiser123 View Post
Glad regulation is catching up. Living in America for the past 5 years has made me realize the value of clean air - 2022 vacations in India were a shock with hazy skies(Bangalore & Mumbai).

RDE shows you how many brands have been exploiting the 'gray zone' for more than 2 decades - BS1 came into effect in 2000 IIRC. Hope ANY of these cars didn't use the defeat devices a certain German Manufacturer used.
I think most of the pollution in urban India is being caused due to construction dust. If anything, the average fuel efficiency of American cars is likely to be lower because of their size and engine capacity, resulting in more emissions per unit area of activity (movement of vehicles). But there is definitely less of construction dust in the US. You will almost never see hordes of multi storey apartment complexes being frantically built in the downtown of mid-sized or even large American cities. Most people in general prefer to stay in suburbs in single storey houses. It also helps that USA is much less densely populated and is much bigger in size. As I indicated in another thread, it is difficult to find pure countryside in India unless you travel to remote places. There is just so much construction and urbanization going on.

Last edited by fhdowntheline : 17th December 2022 at 14:02.
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Old 17th December 2022, 14:57   #12
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chhanda Das View Post
The government had removed subsidies from oil which begs the question as to why did the government care about the volume of oil being imported ? The public was supposed to pay international rates for the oil and yet we are being forced to pay heavily taxed rates despite international rates going down. Hence the idea is not to reduce oil imports but to maximize tax loot despite whatever story the government wants to feed us.
What you said ma'am is exactly what every Indian should know and should dig more to realize how they have been made the scapegoat. Money is being snatched from common-man's hand in the name of higher fuel taxes and reason given is that crude oil results in huge Forex outgo. What most don't know or aren't aware of is that the majority of the Forex we splurge or I even daresay waste is in buying crude gold and not crude oil.

As for the RDE test I feel first all the government fleets and transport vehicles (new and old) should be tested and those polluting immediately chucked out of the road before even touching private vehicle. But then these are ministers and babus traveling in big MPVs and SUVs and a powerful transporters lobby which the government won't dare to touch. So the next gullible part of the society is forced/brainwashed into believing old cars pollute, diesel is the evil fuel, 15 years/10 years is the life of your vehicle beyond that it is just a pile of metal junk.
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Old 17th December 2022, 17:10   #13
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

Those who frame these rules put their head in to the ground and avoid acknowledging the fact that they live in the same world as china which emits more than a third of the world's pollution and ships goods with ships using the crudest bunker fuel which spew a host of other harmful gases like so2, nox,etc. in addition to co2.

Those who are really against pollution should start with the ships and airplanes and push for indigenous production. Those who call for more and more imports from China are either greedy for instant penny or just a plant of China.
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Old 17th December 2022, 21:21   #14
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

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. Those who call for more and more imports from China are either greedy for instant penny or just a plant of China.
It would be difficult to match the cost of production of items on a mass scale that China manages to achieve. India's labour laws, land laws and the judicial system itself are simply not amenable at this time. In China, you may have provinces for administrative convenience but there is really no constitution in the democratic sense. On the other hand, we have such a level of devolution of government powers that villages are taking independent calls on joining one state or the other, not to mention having their say in every step of administrative processes.

Last edited by fhdowntheline : 17th December 2022 at 21:26.
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Old 17th December 2022, 23:01   #15
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re: Real Driving Emission norms | A necessary evil?

I still cannot fathom Škoda’s idea of keeping Kodiaq and doing away with Octavia and Superb.

Tweaking the engine with expensive components means lesser margins on a Sedan? Should I believe this?

If Octavia could give 18Kmpl and Kodiaq could return 14, a trip of 500 Kms, Octavia would consume 28Liters while the Kodiaq, 36.
Is Skoda trying to prove burning 36liters of fuel that puts out a little less of some gas is less polluting, compared to 28?

If car makers really understood what problem we were trying to solve here, they should have kept the Octavia and Superb, shouldn’t they?
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