[400notout]

Originally Posted by StarScream

I never suggested restoring anything.

I thought that was what the below quote meant.

Originally Posted by StarScream

Sure, taxes are higher and I said the taxation is usurious. But I used the word restore for a very simplistic answer.

Originally Posted by StarScream

This is a situation of the govt's own making - and now, especially with GST shortfalls, they can't let go.

Exactly. And we are paying the price.

Originally Posted by StarScream

How is a subsidy burden or a higher import bill not related to the fiscal deficit?

Again with the subsidy? It's not as if the higher import is causing the economy to go haywire.

The present govt. has been very creative in filling it's coffers.

There's Swachh bharat cess, Krishi kalyan cess, education cess, Service tax under GST is now 18%, Excise on fuel, Jan dhan yojana, all govt insurance schemes, and not to forget the globe-trotting to bring in gazillions of foreign investment.

These are some I can remember from the top of my head and all of these are over existing revenue sources.

And if we accept the demonetization argument even IT returns have increased.

And do we have increased accountability? Bell.

The argument is plain. This is robbery and we as citizens should take offense or the powers that be won't stop at anything. If this govt gets away with this all successive govts will resort to such exploitation.

[ramzsys]

Governments gonna milk us, whoever is ruling us- and it's not that the other choice is benevolent either.

How does these faster bikes help, anyway? Average commuting speed is coming down and with our population not going to stop growing anytime soon and lanes not expanding automatically, we need no complex calculations to come to the conclusions that it's gonna get worse in the future.

To fight for cheaper fuel only to burn it idling the engine while waiting to cross Hosa road signal before the 4th red-green-red cycle?

Rant over.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by StarScream

a low fiscal deficit, a booming economy and lots of foreign investment or cheaper prices at the pump?

This argument fallacy is known as False Dilemma.

[StarScream]

Originally Posted by 400notout

Again with the subsidy? It's not as if the higher import is causing the economy to go haywire.

Actually it does - https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d30...10134b0e0d.pdf

to quote - There is a significant relationship between change in manufacturing IIP, GDP growth, WPI change and crude oil price change.

Originally Posted by 400notout

The present govt. has been very creative in filling it's coffers.

There's Swachh bharat cess, Krishi kalyan cess, education cess, Service tax under GST is now 18%, Excise on fuel, Jan dhan yojana, all govt insurance schemes, and not to forget the globe-trotting to bring in gazillions of foreign investment.

These are some I can remember from the top of my head and all of these are over existing revenue sources.

And if we accept the demonetization argument even IT returns have increased.

And do we have increased accountability? Bell.

The argument is plain. This is robbery and we as citizens should take offense or the powers that be won't stop at anything. If this govt gets away with this all successive govts will resort to such exploitation.

True, but let's talk numbers, how much do all those taxes garner and how much does taxation on oil garner?

Also, returns have increased but most of them show zero tax.

I don't understand your point about globe totters and FDI.

Originally Posted by carboy

This argument fallacy is known as False Dilemma.

Disprove me with facts please - how is it a false dilemma?

[400notout]

Originally Posted by StarScream

to quote - There is a significant relationship between change in manufacturing IIP, GDP growth, WPI change and crude oil price change.

The thesis you share talks about the impact of rising crude prices on the economy, the crude prices now are way below what it was in 2013. High crude prices is not really the issue now. Please clarify.

Originally Posted by StarScream

True, but let's talk numbers, how much do all those taxes garner and how much does taxation on oil garner?

It would be great to know how much the additional taxes and the random cess generate. Oil at present provides huge revenue, of course it will, any essential commodity taxed as much as it's actual value will do that won't it? There has to be a fairer distribution of tax collection. Taxing fuel should not be akin to the sin tax on tobacco and alcohol.

Originally Posted by StarScream

Also, returns have increased but most of them show zero tax.

On one hand govt. Sympathisers say tax base has increased due to DeMo and GST. When asked about revenue this is the reply. Related discussion here

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/shift...ml#post4460894 (Government scraps Rs 500 and Rs 1000 notes!)

Originally Posted by StarScream

I don't understand your point about globe totters and FDI.

It was in jest. Related to the urban legend that a great leader has travelled all over the globe to bring in foreign investment. This argument came when the said leaders frequent foreign visits were questioned. Never mind.

[sumzup]

Friends, my two cents on all of the above and please do not mistake me as this message is not against any one single post. This is not the relevant thread for it.

1. Let's understand that politics and policies go hand in hand whichever the government maybe in power.
2. The idea of getting additional revenue is not bad per se but it should be made accountable and successive governments have failed to do so. They simply claim it has been used for infrastructure building or some welfare scheme which then is simply forgotten.
3. With lot of pressures on the political parties on out-beating others in doling out freebies, there will not be any improvements or reductions on the so-called cesses or any other additions.
4. Forget all the macro-economics or micro for that matter, fuel pricing is never in sync with economic realities in our country, and what we need to understand is that until there is transparency in government's approach then whatever economics we apply it will be way as this phrase "over-head transmission" for all of us.

Finally, let us remember that we are not doing any good by just discussing this over this forum and if any we need to to take it up in the appropriate manner with the government or their respective agencies, and ask them to present a white paper which a common man like us can understand before they demit the office. This will enable to know where exactly the revenues are before the next term begins and also we are aware about the status on various projects. This is my humble opinion only.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by StarScream

Disprove me with facts please - how is it a false dilemma?

You are talking as if the only way to balance the budget is to increase taxes. There is another way - it's to reduce expenses.



- Around 3500 Crores is used to subsidise DD, AIR etc every year

- 1000s of crores are used to subsidise MTNL & BSNL every year

- Air India subsidies

- 100 crores are spent on Yoga Day every year

- there are lot more of such useless expenditure

- They build statues of Sardar Patel, Shivaji etc.

- They spend money on Cow Dung & Cow Urine research

- They write of lakhs of crores of farmer loans



The list is never ending.



Has this Govt done anything at all to reduce expenditure?



Has it done any significant disinvestment (forget privatisation - that's far reach for a left wing govt) at all? They disinvested part of HPCL into ONGC
That was one of the funniest things I read about this year.



So yeah, presenting more taxes or fiscal deficit as the only 2 choices is false dichotomy.

[StarScream]

Originally Posted by 400notout

The thesis you share talks about the impact of rising crude prices on the economy, the crude prices now are way below what it was in 2013. High crude prices is not really the issue now. Please clarify.

And you'd be correct - if you take 2013 s the starting point. But why 2013? Taxes were cut and rupee averaged 58.6 vs. the dollar.

So let's compare from the time this govt. took over - May 2014. But even that shows a 29.3% decline. However as oil plunged towards the end of 2015 and touched a low of $27.88/barrel on Jan.20, 2016 (closing prices) the idea of piling on taxes took hold (correct me if I'm wrong, perhaps they started earlier.). So from that point, oil has risen 180%. In the meantime, the rupee has fallen 13% this year alone and our consumption is increasing year by year.

Originally Posted by 400notout

It would be great to know how much the additional taxes and the random cess generate. Oil at present provides huge revenue, of course it will, any essential commodity taxed as much as it's actual value will do that won't it? There has to be a fairer distribution of tax collection. Taxing fuel should not be akin to the sin tax on tobacco and alcohol.

Let's not talk generalities. I can get you the numbers if unable.

Fairer distribution of tax is a point I agree with. They should have reduced taxes when oil started to climb again. Someone was asleep at the wheel.

Even cars are taxed akin to a sin good!

Originally Posted by carboy

You are talking as if the only way to balance the budget is to increase taxes. There is another way - it's to reduce expenses.

- Around 3500 Crores is used to subsidise DD, AIR etc every year

- 1000s of crores are used to subsidise MTNL & BSNL every year

- Air India subsidies

- 100 crores are spent on Yoga Day every year

- there are lot more of such useless expenditure

- They build statues of Sardar Patel, Shivaji etc.

- They spend money on Cow Dung & Cow Urine research

- They write of lakhs of crores of farmer loans

The list is never ending.

Has this Govt done anything at all to reduce expenditure?

Has it done any significant disinvestment (forget privatisation - that's far reach for a left wing govt) at all?

True but minus any of this happening (and it hasn't) what is the option? None of those are quick fixes or are too little. And even if they accomplish a few of those, I doubt they'll let go of oil revenue - a stable and rising source. Although it doesn't quite apply here, government spending does help spur an economy.

[GeneralJazz]

The price for high octane petrol has crossed the 100 rupee barrier!

https://www.indiatimes.com/news/indi...re-353062.html

Premium petrol consumers are bearing such a high cost as on September 08, the price of Octane quality petrol was increased to Rs 100.33/litre.

The display machine, however, was showing only Rs 0.33 per litre. When Indiatimes spoke to a petrol pump owner, he said "We have to manually update the fuel prices every day because they keep changing. The fuel dispenser can't handle more than Rs 100 as of now.”

Reminds me of the scene from Simpsons!

[ashtrix]

In April 2014 the excise duty on diesel was Rs. 3.56 per liter and on petrol it was Rs. 9.48 per liter. As the global crude price fell our government increased the excise duty on diesel to Rs. 17.33 and on petrol to Rs. 21.48 and thereby the government made whopping revenue collection in last 4 years. Now the crude prices are going up our dear government in unwilling to reduce the excise duty that it increased during the last 3-4 years.
I wish and hope that the government brings back the excise duty to April 2014 levels or at least reduce the excise duty on petrol and diesel by Rs.10 per liter.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by StarScream

So let's compare from the time this govt. took over - May 2014. But even that shows a 29.3% decline. However as oil plunged towards the end of 2015 and touched a low of $27.88/barrel on Jan.20, 2016 (closing prices) the idea of piling on taxes took hold (correct me if I'm wrong, perhaps they started earlier.). So from that point, oil has risen 180%. In the meantime, the rupee has fallen 13% this year alone and our consumption is increasing year by year.

In 2013, 1$ = Rs 63 & Oil Barrel was 115$ a barrel.
So 1 Barrel was Rs. 7245 & Petrol was Rs. 83 a liter at the pump


Now, 1$ = 72 & Oil Barrel is 77$ a barrel
So 1 Barrel now is Rs. 5544 & Petrol is Rs. 88 a liter at the pump.

This is simple math showing that the main thing responsible for high petrol prices currently is the astronomical increase in taxes by this government.

Originally Posted by StarScream

True but minus any of this happening (and it hasn't) what is the option?

The option is to not use false dichotomy & show that the only 2 options which were available to the govt in the last 4 years was to either raise taxes or balance the budget.

[PGA]

https://www.indiatimes.com/news/indi...re-353062.html

Now that economic review has come and gone last evening and no news on taxes being reduced, I pin my hopes on above fact.

Secondly I think whole game plan is to reduce prices during forthcoming state elections, I don't see any other reasons why they couldn't be done now. It's politics and not economics at play.:sly:

[ashtrix]

Rajasthan and Telangana governments have already reduced their taxes by about Re 1 as a token gesture in light of forthcoming elections. If central government also shows this type of token gesture it would mean nothing to consumers as prices are rising everyday.

[GTO]

Moderator Note: A polite reminder of our rules that don't permit any discussions on politics or politicians. Thanks!

[MaxTorque]

Originally Posted by PGA

https://www.indiatimes.com/news/indi...re-353062.html

Now that economic review has come and gone last evening and no news on taxes being reduced, I pin my hopes on above fact.

I think they will quote the price per lesser quantity like millimeters, quarter and half a liter etc.

I liked your optimism though..!