Enthusiast initiative in india - low ?

hell_rider · 5th July 2005, 13:07

fellow bhpians...

i was once again going through my illustrated book on famous / well loved marques down the ages (automobile ages i mean). a very satisfying exercise if i may say so.

i just got to wondering that a large number of the really great cars were not built by automobile companies at all. they were built by enthusiasts. these people accomplished this with very little resources and advantages that a "company" has.

now these people came up with amazing designs and more importantly, engines with amazing specs way back in time. i'm talking about the 50's, 60's etc. they used aluminium, alloys etc. for the bodies, other exotic stuff for the cylinder heads and what have you.

Why is it that there is nothing like that happening in india even today ? please don't point me to the chinkara or DC. i am talking about actual halfway decent cars you can actually drive.

today we have a large number of people who understand the dynamics and engineering behind an automobile. why is it that a couple of enthusiasts have not come together to build a decent engine and design a simple car around it ?

i'm not talking about a commercial success here based on numbers. just a really good car which enthusiasts will buy, albeit in few numbers. but something that is distinctive and performs.

readonly · 5th July 2005, 13:20

Not only the in the automobile field but take any field there are no enthusiasts that devote time to build marvels! Reason could be no time or money is elsewhere!

Shan2nu · 5th July 2005, 13:43

If you want a fast car. Buy a stock Indian car and modify it. There are guys like Psycho and Domnic who would be glad to help you out.

Shan2nu

BuRnT RuBbEr · 5th July 2005, 13:46

is it a call on team bhpians to get united and blast the hell out of the brands.. read fiat ford ...er....ferrari

??

if so, i am game...electronics and software of the car.....

mechanics....so many modders in here...that wont be tough..will it be?

BuRnT RuBbEr · 5th July 2005, 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan2nu

If you want a fast car. Buy a stock Indian car and modify it. There are guys like Psycho and Domnic who would be glad to help you out.

Shan2nu

if i am correct, he wants to have a whole new car, not a modded thing.

right Mr. hell rider?

Psycho · 5th July 2005, 13:55

Well for starters there are quite a few of us who dream of being right where you defined BUT the costs are really prohibitive and which of us can afford a proper foundry with CNC machines etc... It sounds really easy but in actuality it requires a lot more commitment and also a lot more money to accomplish something like that... How many people do you know who would be willing to sponsor a project like that??? most will end up saying we will wait till a reliable end product is out... No wonder tuners try bettering existing products rather than trying to build themselves

We are however trying to get there with the limited means we have but it still seems like a long way away... cant even think of quitting a job coz you dunno how one will keep up to commitments

Most of us end up using the easier route of picking up on stuff thats available and then try bettering it even then... one needs funds to procure parts as it is not easy doing them here... Trust me I know it first hand as I even ground my own cams

hell_rider · 5th July 2005, 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuRnT RuBbEr

if i am correct, he wants to have a whole new car, not a modded thing.

right Mr. hell rider?

correct....

not anything hi-tech. just something original that looks distinctive and performs.

hell_rider · 5th July 2005, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

Well for starters there are quite a few of us who dream of being right where you defined BUT the costs are really prohibitive and which of us can afford a proper foundry with CNC machines etc... It sounds really easy but in actuality it requires a lot more commitment and also a lot more money to accomplish something like that... How many people do you know who would be willing to sponsor a project like that??? most will end up saying we will wait till a reliable end product is out... No wonder tuners try bettering existing products rather than trying to build themselves

We are however trying to get there with the limited means we have but it still seems like a long way away... cant even think of quitting a job coz you dunno how one will keep up to commitments

Most of us end up using the easier route of picking up on stuff thats available and then try bettering it even then... one needs funds to procure parts as it is not easy doing them here... Trust me I know it first hand as I even ground my own cams

ok..first off, i am not saying I, ME, MYSELF want a fast car. i might as well go out and get myself a PALIO GTX in that case.

my point was why there were no enthusiast built cars in India at all.

we can look at handbuliding cars the old way. this was my precise point. some of the beautiful designs of the past were executed without CNC machines or anything computer-assisted. we do not need volumes. we can leave out the bells and whistles. no need for power windows or beige interiors.

just the fundamentals, but they got to be spot on.

adya33 · 5th July 2005, 17:32

Quote:

we can leave out the bells and whistles. no need for power windows or beige interiors.

just the fundamentals, but they got to be spot on.

it might be due to economy too.
in india cars are still considered as luxury
most families have one car per family

in developed countries almost everyone in family has a car also those people also buy few cars just for hobbie.
how many people in india can afford to do that?
(leave out billionares they will go for imported "KNOWN" cars)
the market for those "FAST CARS" is middle class people who can not buy expensive fast cars

but trend is changing chinkara, san storm are just first steps sure they are bad but they have actually started something

ananthkamath · 5th August 2005, 10:36

Almost all past attempts by companies to build an Indian sportscar have failed/never taken off: the Kari 65, De la Chapelle, Quantum, and dare I say, the San Storm...all these have gone/are going the way of the dodo..

But now, going by the amount of money being poured by people into souping up their cars, the time is definitely ripe for an Indian-built sports car: come on guys, there's only so much that the poor Zen chassis can take (no offence meant to Zen owners)!

My thoughts on what this sports car should be like:

1)Engine/Drivetrain - All the cars I mentioned above, they had imported powertrains...Effect: High Cost

Hence, the entire engine/gearbox assembly right upto the driveshafts should be taken off a FWD Indian-built car,like for instance, the Ikon...I suggest a Ford only because they are not averse to selling engines in small numbers to specialist car companies...look at the scene in Britain.

Naturally, this should be mounted in a mid/rear config to drive the rear wheels....Mods from the factory should be restricted to ECU, intake and exhaust only. (due to homologation issues)

2)Rear Suspension - As far as possible, the front suspension with brakes from the donor car..lets say the Ikon, should be retained (with suitable mods) at the rear. Spring and damper rates should be matched to the new car, if necessary.

3)Front Suspension - No car that we have in India today has a front suspension good enough for a thorough-bred sports car. So, it should be custom-made in the factory. A double-wishbone design is a given. Disc brakes of the same size as the rear should be used.

To keep production-tooling costs down (and they become HUGE if not kept in check, believe me), the wishbones should be tubular with polygraphite-bushed rod-ends. The ball-joints and uprights should, as far as possible, be from existing Indian cars.

Rack-and-pinion steering box, along with column should be sourced from an Indian car, with suitable mods.

4)Chassis/Body/Interior - These can only be custom-built in the factory and be of a design (engg design, not aesthetic design) similar to what San is doing with Storm/Streak. Meaning, steel frame bonded to one-piece fibreglass body. This is the only way to go for low production volumes.

Overall, I'm looking at a car which is about the size of a Storm, weighs about 700 kg, has a min. of 100bhp at the rear wheels, is very aggressive round corners, and costs in the region of 6 to 7 big ones...Oh, and the company which builds it should have a service contract with the powertrain supplier (say Ford) so that the car can be serviced at their service outlets...

Is all this impossible? You tell me, guys....

Revvhead · 5th August 2005, 11:16

I like yr basic idea- dunno if its viable.
Fit & finish is what will matter here.
Also i still dont think yr Power to weight ratio as stated presently is good enough.- simply as it would be a Boys toy, so at present either you have to get a customer who is rich enuff to have it as his 2nd/3rd car (therefore can afford to buya powerful luxury car instead), or has to convince me to buy this and abandon comfort & (maybe) even AC or a regular car, Maybe 10% more power at the least.
It has to really get your adrenaline up and handle well.
In exchange for that you can get away with Basic (But not shoddy) controls and fittings.

A bare bones sportscar.
a drop in price (very hard) would obviously be a big plus

Psycho · 5th August 2005, 11:38

well it would be viable if the homogolation and crash test issues werent there... According to Indian rules you can however procure existing kit cars with Homogoletion certificates and get them cleared from ARAI you can then manufacture those Kits here... And I think the engine type would have to be prefitted to the kit befoer taking it to Arai...

It is very much possible using donor drive trains here... but cost and current market???

ananthkamath · 5th August 2005, 11:53

Psycho - Given the fact that kitcars don't have much of a reputation for lasting, I don't think they would be suitable for India...even if they get a direct entry without the need for homologation.

For this kind of project to take off, I am assuming that there will be a big bucks bankroller to back it. A budget of 100 crores at the very least to design, develop and manufacture the car..most of the R&D costs wouldnt be there cause as I mentioned, the major parts are all pre-engineered to work on much heavier cars, hence fatigue wouldnt be an issue.
Crash testing and homologation- Can someone throw light on the costs involved?

Revvhead - Getting more power should not be an issue at all. 10% or even 25% streetable power is a no-brainer these days. I agree with fit-and-finish issues though. The key is to keep it simple with very less interior parts....

Psycho · 5th August 2005, 12:28

Like I said going and selling the car as street cars will not last you long even after all the money is put in... One of the key factor that drives the sales of the cars is reputation of the brand, quality of the car (performance, fit and finish etc) followed by after sales service.

An easier method is to carve out a niche market is to build custom cars for the track prove them to be out performers and then sell undertuned versions for the market...

As people would say nothing is impossible it just costs money

A dream setup would be the overall breakup you defined powered with at least a 150 bhp engine on a 700 kg car giving it close to about 200 horses on the street (brings it to the international league) the most serious contender for the engine would be the grand vitara's and Maruti's service support that can back up such a setup (provided we use stuff off maruti's)

Another thimg would be to make sure that the vehicle meets up to the Euro 3 requirements and can be tuned using OBD2...

However to sum up the track would be the right place to start and then bring it to the street (even the Shelby Cobra's dont have great detailing on them but even the replica's are still in demand)... It would mean lower costs to start and also a direct step into the big league of names.

Rtech: What are the minimum numbers to be produced to homogolate the car? (Homogolation Specials)

ananthkamath · 5th August 2005, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

Like I said going and selling the car as street cars will not last you long even after all the money is put in... One of the key factor that drives the sales of the cars is reputation of the brand, quality of the car (performance, fit and finish etc) followed by after sales service.

An easier method is to carve out a niche market is to build custom cars for the track prove them to be out performers and then sell undertuned versions for the market...

I totally agree with this...By track, I assume you mean the drag strip..because that is the only platform in India where such a car can race with other makes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

A dream setup would be the overall breakup you defined powered with at least a 150 bhp engine on a 700 kg car giving it close to about 200 horses on the street (brings it to the international league) the most serious contender for the engine would be the grand vitara's and Maruti's service support that can back up such a setup (provided we use stuff off maruti's)

More power is always better....but 150 bhp in a 700 kg car with a Vitara engine? I don't think 700 kg is possible with this engine using the construction technique I mentioned...even the Lotus Elise has trouble undercutting 700 kg with an aluminum chassis...and the first Elise had only 120 bhp....

5th July 2005, 13:07	#1
hell_rider BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Mumbai Posts: 538 Thanked: 61 Times	enthusiast initiative in india - low ? fellow bhpians... i was once again going through my illustrated book on famous / well loved marques down the ages (automobile ages i mean). a very satisfying exercise if i may say so. i just got to wondering that a large number of the really great cars were not built by automobile companies at all. they were built by enthusiasts. these people accomplished this with very little resources and advantages that a "company" has. now these people came up with amazing designs and more importantly, engines with amazing specs way back in time. i'm talking about the 50's, 60's etc. they used aluminium, alloys etc. for the bodies, other exotic stuff for the cylinder heads and what have you. Why is it that there is nothing like that happening in india even today ? please don't point me to the chinkara or DC. i am talking about actual halfway decent cars you can actually drive. today we have a large number of people who understand the dynamics and engineering behind an automobile. why is it that a couple of enthusiasts have not come together to build a decent engine and design a simple car around it ? i'm not talking about a commercial success here based on numbers. just a really good car which enthusiasts will buy, albeit in few numbers. but something that is distinctive and performs.
	() Thanks

5th July 2005, 13:20	#2
readonly BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: chennai Posts: 42 Thanked: 0 Times	Not only the in the automobile field but take any field there are no enthusiasts that devote time to build marvels! Reason could be no time or money is elsewhere!
	() Thanks

5th July 2005, 13:43	#3
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 125 Times View My Garage	If you want a fast car. Buy a stock Indian car and modify it. There are guys like Psycho and Domnic who would be glad to help you out. Shan2nu
	() Thanks

5th July 2005, 13:46	#4
BuRnT RuBbEr BHPian Join Date: May 2005 Location: DL 1 Posts: 367 Thanked: 13 Times	is it a call on team bhpians to get united and blast the hell out of the brands.. read fiat ford ...er....ferrari ?? if so, i am game...electronics and software of the car..... mechanics....so many modders in here...that wont be tough..will it be?
	() Thanks

5th July 2005, 13:55	#6
Psycho Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,043 Thanked: 110 Times View My Garage	Well for starters there are quite a few of us who dream of being right where you defined BUT the costs are really prohibitive and which of us can afford a proper foundry with CNC machines etc... It sounds really easy but in actuality it requires a lot more commitment and also a lot more money to accomplish something like that... How many people do you know who would be willing to sponsor a project like that??? most will end up saying we will wait till a reliable end product is out... No wonder tuners try bettering existing products rather than trying to build themselves We are however trying to get there with the limited means we have but it still seems like a long way away... cant even think of quitting a job coz you dunno how one will keep up to commitments Most of us end up using the easier route of picking up on stuff thats available and then try bettering it even then... one needs funds to procure parts as it is not easy doing them here... Trust me I know it first hand as I even ground my own cams
	() Thanks

5th August 2005, 10:36	#10
ananthkamath Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mangalore Posts: 1,209 Thanked: 80 Times View My Garage	Conjecture:Blueprint for Indian Sports Car Almost all past attempts by companies to build an Indian sportscar have failed/never taken off: the Kari 65, De la Chapelle, Quantum, and dare I say, the San Storm...all these have gone/are going the way of the dodo.. But now, going by the amount of money being poured by people into souping up their cars, the time is definitely ripe for an Indian-built sports car: come on guys, there's only so much that the poor Zen chassis can take (no offence meant to Zen owners)! My thoughts on what this sports car should be like: 1)Engine/Drivetrain - All the cars I mentioned above, they had imported powertrains...Effect: High Cost Hence, the entire engine/gearbox assembly right upto the driveshafts should be taken off a FWD Indian-built car,like for instance, the Ikon...I suggest a Ford only because they are not averse to selling engines in small numbers to specialist car companies...look at the scene in Britain. Naturally, this should be mounted in a mid/rear config to drive the rear wheels....Mods from the factory should be restricted to ECU, intake and exhaust only. (due to homologation issues) 2)Rear Suspension - As far as possible, the front suspension with brakes from the donor car..lets say the Ikon, should be retained (with suitable mods) at the rear. Spring and damper rates should be matched to the new car, if necessary. 3)Front Suspension - No car that we have in India today has a front suspension good enough for a thorough-bred sports car. So, it should be custom-made in the factory. A double-wishbone design is a given. Disc brakes of the same size as the rear should be used. To keep production-tooling costs down (and they become HUGE if not kept in check, believe me), the wishbones should be tubular with polygraphite-bushed rod-ends. The ball-joints and uprights should, as far as possible, be from existing Indian cars. Rack-and-pinion steering box, along with column should be sourced from an Indian car, with suitable mods. 4)Chassis/Body/Interior - These can only be custom-built in the factory and be of a design (engg design, not aesthetic design) similar to what San is doing with Storm/Streak. Meaning, steel frame bonded to one-piece fibreglass body. This is the only way to go for low production volumes. Overall, I'm looking at a car which is about the size of a Storm, weighs about 700 kg, has a min. of 100bhp at the rear wheels, is very aggressive round corners, and costs in the region of 6 to 7 big ones...Oh, and the company which builds it should have a service contract with the powertrain supplier (say Ford) so that the car can be serviced at their service outlets... Is all this impossible? You tell me, guys....
	() Thanks

5th August 2005, 11:16	#11
Revvhead BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bombay Posts: 450 Thanked: 20 Times View My Garage	I like yr basic idea- dunno if its viable. Fit & finish is what will matter here. Also i still dont think yr Power to weight ratio as stated presently is good enough.- simply as it would be a Boys toy, so at present either you have to get a customer who is rich enuff to have it as his 2nd/3rd car (therefore can afford to buya powerful luxury car instead), or has to convince me to buy this and abandon comfort & (maybe) even AC or a regular car, Maybe 10% more power at the least. It has to really get your adrenaline up and handle well. In exchange for that you can get away with Basic (But not shoddy) controls and fittings. A bare bones sportscar. a drop in price (very hard) would obviously be a big plus
	() Thanks

5th August 2005, 11:38	#12
Psycho Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,043 Thanked: 110 Times View My Garage	well it would be viable if the homogolation and crash test issues werent there... According to Indian rules you can however procure existing kit cars with Homogoletion certificates and get them cleared from ARAI you can then manufacture those Kits here... And I think the engine type would have to be prefitted to the kit befoer taking it to Arai... It is very much possible using donor drive trains here... but cost and current market???
	() Thanks

5th August 2005, 11:53	#13
ananthkamath Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mangalore Posts: 1,209 Thanked: 80 Times View My Garage	Psycho - Given the fact that kitcars don't have much of a reputation for lasting, I don't think they would be suitable for India...even if they get a direct entry without the need for homologation. For this kind of project to take off, I am assuming that there will be a big bucks bankroller to back it. A budget of 100 crores at the very least to design, develop and manufacture the car..most of the R&D costs wouldnt be there cause as I mentioned, the major parts are all pre-engineered to work on much heavier cars, hence fatigue wouldnt be an issue. Crash testing and homologation- Can someone throw light on the costs involved? Revvhead - Getting more power should not be an issue at all. 10% or even 25% streetable power is a no-brainer these days. I agree with fit-and-finish issues though. The key is to keep it simple with very less interior parts....
	() Thanks

5th August 2005, 12:28	#14
Psycho Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,043 Thanked: 110 Times View My Garage	Like I said going and selling the car as street cars will not last you long even after all the money is put in... One of the key factor that drives the sales of the cars is reputation of the brand, quality of the car (performance, fit and finish etc) followed by after sales service. An easier method is to carve out a niche market is to build custom cars for the track prove them to be out performers and then sell undertuned versions for the market... As people would say nothing is impossible it just costs money A dream setup would be the overall breakup you defined powered with at least a 150 bhp engine on a 700 kg car giving it close to about 200 horses on the street (brings it to the international league) the most serious contender for the engine would be the grand vitara's and Maruti's service support that can back up such a setup (provided we use stuff off maruti's) Another thimg would be to make sure that the vehicle meets up to the Euro 3 requirements and can be tuned using OBD2... However to sum up the track would be the right place to start and then bring it to the street (even the Shelby Cobra's dont have great detailing on them but even the replica's are still in demand)... It would mean lower costs to start and also a direct step into the big league of names. Rtech: What are the minimum numbers to be produced to homogolate the car? (Homogolation Specials)
	() Thanks