Team-BHP - VW Polo vs Ford Figo Comparison (My take!)

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Originally Posted by rajivn (Post 1793171)

Innovation is not just producing new product, it is also about how one can reuse older product to produce a new product that can give a run to most of the competing products. Its a business decision.

There are people who dont care about the platform, brand values and philosophies, engineering, etc in car. All they want is max bang for the buck. And there are people who value all that I mentioned and would love to be associated with a certain brand and its products. Its an individual choice and I totally respect your choice.

While Ford has built a VFM product, I would also say its no way inferior and its as much a world class product as Beat or Swift or Polo is. Figo is a genuine attempt from Ford to provide a world class VFM product to the Indian consumers. I dont care how they achieved it.

On the other hand, Polo an acclaimed and award winning international car debuts only to realize its not going to be an easy ride here and the demanding people here need more for less(bucks). India's auto market and hatch segment in specific has grown and growing wildly with cut throat competition. So, companies are forced to give their best, anything less than best is gonna be rejected in the free market. So, I think Ford has given their best and not treated India as a place that would accept some B grade products.

For the ones craving for International spec cars, the much acclaimed and raved about Fiesta sedan and Fiesta hatch are coming in 2011.

In general, these could be the initial reactions, Wow, one can get a VW car for just 4.50L (ex), its cool. But, when one compares with competing cars and tries to take informed decision, the initial 'wow, its cool' would turn to 'hmmm, not bad'. The same might happen for Figo too. The ones that wows most people will win or maybe both will do well in the market.

I would put my money on Figo and good to see that Figo and Polo are almost neck to neck in this poll here.

just wondering why Ford did not choose Europe or Americas for reusing their old product, rather they choose to discard and replace it with a new one. and use the discarded product in India. Offcourse its a good business decision for the company at the cost of customers aspirations.

figo cannot be truly called a world-class product, unlike swift or i10 or beat or polo which are available in global markets. Yes it is a VFM product for masses..

Its true majority of people dont care for platform, snob value, product age and such other criteria. Thats why Maruti 800 ruled and Alto is still the best seller. But the ones who care do look at what we are being offered here in India and compare it with what company offers in international market.

Well it is a huge market with place for everyone. If bang for buck was the only rule, we wont have seen Jazz, Fabias and I20s on our roads.

Indian customer mind set is a big mystery. I remember seeing a poll when i20 and Punto were launched. Predictably Punto had humbled i20 in the polls. But in real number game what happened is clear after a year. I20 is outclassing Punto by 3:1.So please take these polls with a pich of salt.

In case of VFM cars the reach and number of dealerships is a critical factor for the success. In my native place still I find Tata and Maruti and Mahindra cars only. Ford has introduced Figo as a VFM product. So for Ford to make Figo a grand success, it has to expand the dealerships to tier 3 and below towns. Even the current expansion is not good enough. VW with only 40 dealerships on the other hand is targeting only the class conscious city customers for the moment with Polo. This is evident in the way they are advertising for Polo. Ground breaking print ads only in major cities. No TV ads for wider audience.

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Originally Posted by Amartya (Post 1793149)

I really respect VW's engineering, it is purely their bean counters dictating the terms here. I'd like to ask you a question, why do you think that VW's 1.6 litre engine (one that is scheduled to arrive in India) has 4 cylinders? They could have just had 3, if Tata can make a 3-litre engine (the 3.0 in the 407 and the Safari Dicor) with 4 cyinders, surely 3 would be enough for 1.6 litres.

German companies usually will not allow bean counters to dictate terms, but their engineers understand the economic fundamentals that demand an appropriate return on investment and I suspect they would have a decent handle on what the mass market really looks to have in the car to garner volumes at this time in India. A lot of work would have gone into the decision by a combination of engineers, bean counters and product marketing guys. Have they come up with the right compromise ( every product has to have one )? - time will tell, via market response.
Another question - would you rather drive a rattle free Polo with a three cylinder of somewhat lesser refinement than a Suzuki K engine, or a rattly Swift with a refined K engine? If the car rattles, does that not defeat the engine refinement to a degree? There will be two valid opinions about that, and VWI obviously believes that there are enough subscribers to their answer.
From an engineering standpoint, I am sure there is a threshold of cylinder size, after which the three does not make more sense than a four. I wonder what is that for 4 going on to 6 as well. I would not use the Tata example, all their engines are unrefined regardless of cylinder count. But if Honda can make a refined 2400 cc 4, then a 1600 cc triple does not seem to cross the threshhold - but that is just arithmetic talking and may not be a valid answer. Also, the VW 1.6 may sit in a version that is priced for a price point that demands the additional refinement of a 4, and where that willingness is also contained in the price point.
Hyundai had/has a superb Detroit Diesel triple in their cars, I am not sure what was the size of the engine.
I'd say that VWI has made a courageous decision about the three pot, and I wish them success because it adds another good product into the market mix.

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Originally Posted by Sawyer (Post 1795313)

Another question - would you rather drive a rattle free Polo with a three cylinder of somewhat lesser refinement than a Suzuki K engine, or a rattly Swift with a refined K engine? If the car rattles, does that not defeat the engine refinement to a degree? There will be two valid opinions about that, and VWI obviously believes that there are enough subscribers to their answer.
From an engineering standpoint, I am sure there is a threshold of cylinder size, after which the three does not make more sense than a four. I wonder what is that for 4 going on to 6 as well. I would not use the Tata example, all their engines are unrefined regardless of cylinder count. But if Honda can make a refined 2400 cc 4, then a 1600 cc triple does not seem to cross the threshhold - but that is just arithmetic talking and may not be a valid answer. Also, the VW 1.6 may sit in a version that is priced for a price point that demands the additional refinement of a 4, and where that willingness is also contained in the price point.
Hyundai had/has a superb Detroit Diesel triple in their cars, I am not sure what was the size of the engine.
I'd say that VWI has made a courageous decision about the three pot, and I wish them success because it adds another good product into the market mix.

I'll offer my view on what is a really articulate post. The only thing I can really object to, and this might be nitpicking, is the fact that you think VW did something courageous. Try as I might, I cannot fathom how it can be courageous; playing on the ignorance and to a certain degree the relatively upmarket brand image allows them to do so.

Hyundai did indeed have a spunky 1.5litre 3-pot Crdi mill, it was fast, but it also was rather unrefined.

You also mention that the 1.6 litre engined (clearly one aimed at the enthusiast) version's price point might warrant the additional refinement of the fourth cylinder; now why can't they offer the same refinement to the customer's of the 1.2 litre version (not power, refinement)? They have priced the Polo quite competitively but it's clearly not a steal.

In the end, I agree that the Polo is good for the consumer, it gives another option and increases competition.

P.S. The engine capacity to number of cylinders question wasn't aimed at you, and the answer that I was trying to draw was simply the fact that the 3-pot engine is a money saving tactic.

This thread is getting really interesting, with lots of emotions flying around.
My vote for sure goes for Ford, for the VFM, I in fact conducted a mock survey in my grandma's neighbourhood. (please do not argue that it is not methodical and all).

Among around 50 people I spoke to informally, Atleast, more than 70 % of the people recognized the brand Ford, while nearly 40% or even lesser even knew the brand VW. Now dont think that would reflect with the sales numbers even. But for those who voted for VW why dont you make a survey of such among aam admi (the ones whom both cars are targetted for). You will realize the numbers would be similar.
As someone pointed out, it doesnt matter what motor enthusiasts like us thinks, its the decision of aam admi which decides the final numbers..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amartya (Post 1795362)

now why can't they offer the same refinement to the customer's of the 1.2 litre version (not power, refinement)? They have priced the Polo quite competitively but it's clearly not a steal.

I would think because, by their calculations, that is not something they can afford to give in the cost budget dictated by the price point. And because they think that it does not matter to the same extent that you think it does. Who is correct - again, the sales numbers they hit with the car will provide the answer. Its like the i 20 story, a lot of people are able to put up with the somewhat limp engine in the car, as I am, for all its other virtues. Similarly, if all other expectations of a solid, long living and reliable car that ages well, with good after sales are met, people may not care about an engine that may not be as refined as a K series engine. It also depends on how much is the refinement lack that is felt in real life driving.
Also, do they have a 1.2 four in their engine line up? I know they sell the triple globally in the 2010 car, but I am not sure that they also offer a 1.2 four. If they do not, it may have not made sense to spend on development for just India.
PS: Given the price, to my mind, the base diesel Figo at the same price as the base petrol Polo, may be the better buy. The only question on that in my mind would be the build quality of the Ford lasting out over say, 8 years, and the cost of maintaining it, given their past reputation in India. That apart, it seems like for the same price I can get another good car, with a diesel that is frugal and just as refined as the engine in the Polo ( I guess ). And if it was to be driven for longer times daily, it seems to be just the car at the price point.

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Originally Posted by poloman (Post 1795518)

Ford is present in India for more than 15 years. VW entered only 2-3 years back that also in premium segment. So you cannot compare the brand recognition of VW and Ford in India among masses. VW is looking for buyers who seeks exclusivity in a crowded market. You can see more Swifts and i10s in Bangalore than bikes.

Well, if you are seeking exclusivity, then you will not be in a mass market, with a product which is dirt cheap as per VW standards, the only reason they are here is because they belive they can appeal to aam aadmi( sorry to repeat these words again), if these people are your target consumers then first make sure that they know you...