[ags82]

I think a good option to reduce cost is to tap into solar power to charge EV at home. Use fast charging facility when one is travelling and need to save time.

[ritesh_44]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Maharashtra MSEB looking to hike electricity tariff by 37% from 01 April 2023.

The new price is still similar to what consumer's of other states are paying. EVs with current infrastructure are anyway not meant for long rides.

Lets not forget that from mining to manufacturing, the emission are higher for an EV compared to ICE cars.

There's still no clear consensus on this, with both sides publishing and rebutting
long analysis and skipping convinient data points to make the results look better.
If there's is any start to end lifecycle emission reports, please share here (not the reports which skip the emission from crude oil extraction and refinement)

[LeoRBK]

Originally Posted by CarJunki

And a good percentage of EV owners should also attempt to go solar for charging (and other needs). Driving the delta cost of electricity for charging towards zero. I am quite sure none of us can produce/refine our own petrol/diesel.

It is a very good thought.
In UK we do struggle with Solar energy. Installation is expensive and it takes years to pay off in terms of energy generated.
But this might change with favourable govt policies in the future.

[shyampsunder]

Pretty funny to see so much happiness among the community around this news.

Thinking comes from a fossil fuel mindset where there is one price for fuel whereas, in the EV world, you have a wide array of options to choose from and the ultimate cost you pay is the blended cost.

Do you want the cheapest possible energy? Charge at home/office. I regularly charge at work on free 100% renewable energy.

Are you afraid the utility will hike the electricity price? You can install a solar panel and end your dependence on the utility overnight. A basic 2 kW solar setup is more than enough for most people and costs around Rs 2L including installation which will last your 20+ years.

You are on a long trip and you want the fastest possible charging speed? Use high-speed DC chargers. Recently on a drive from Chennai to Bangalore, I used Zeon Charging over Tata Power and Relux which are cheaper. This is because they have high-speed charging and reliability. I will continue to happily pay a higher price for good DC charging.

Ultimately EVs are here to stay and their growth will India will be breathtaking in my humble opinion

[dileepcm]

I have said this before and will keep saying. Unless your car is (mostly) fuelled by your own solar power - Its not cheap or sustainable at the end. My colleague here in NL often drives his Skoda Fabia to work than Jaguar I-Pace as electricity costs are that high after the energy price hikes in EU.

You will need your own power source on which you have price control. Other wise any gains such as subsidies / lower eletricity from grid etc remain short term.

[Contrapunto]

Originally Posted by ags82

I think a good option to reduce cost is to tap into solar power to charge EV at home. Use fast charging facility when one is travelling and need to save time.

That is indeed a good option, but available to very few (availability of space, feasibility of setting up the solar panels based on alignment etc, constraints of setting it up in large Appartments)

If the govt is serious, they have to treat public CPOs as a public utility and tax them marginally, if at all.

[LeoRBK]

Originally Posted by ICE_Swift

I'd take the news with a pinch of salt as the UK is currently going through a Cost of Living Crisis that is affecting the price of everything.
Electric Bills and Gas Bills have shot up as a result of the Russia Ukraine War and it's raised the price of Commodities and Electricity as well.
I'd want to know if there was a similar study conducted in the UK during the Pre Covid Period when everything was relatively stable and Compare the Results.

I switched to EV in the middle of pandemic. When home charging the cost of journey was roughly one-third of what it would cost on an ICE car and public rapid charge based journey would cost half.
These days public rapid charge journey is slightly more expensive than ICE. Home charge based journey is costing half of ICE.

Global gas price has come down. The trickle down in energy price takes few months because energy companies buy gas several months in advance.

So the situation will get better but not expecting to return to pre pandemic levels.

[TSI_Exhaust]

Originally Posted by ICE_Swift

I'd take the news with a pinch of salt as the UK is currently going through a Cost of Living Crisis that is affecting the price of everything.
Electric Bills and Gas Bills have shot up as a result of the Russia Ukraine War and it's raised the price of Commodities and Electricity as well.
I'd want to know if there was a similar study conducted in the UK during the Pre Covid Period when everything was relatively stable and Compare the Results.

I tend to agree with what ICE_Swift is saying.

There has been a huge price rise in recent times in the UK due to the Russia Ukraine War. Pre-COVID data for a similar case study would bring more clarity.

But I would say that the long term solution is hydrogen based and the immediate one is hybrid. E20 fuel is somewhere in there as well although it might open its own can of worms to deal with.

As far as fast charging costs are concerned with regards to EVs, I would still say that it all depends on how many highway miles you are munching on a daily/weekly/monthly basis coupled with the increase in price per unit of electricity which the government might or will propose (case in question, MSEDCLs recently announced 30%-40% tariff hike for residential and commercial consumers).

Not to mention steep degradation of battery capacity due to frequent fast charging. This will impact re-sale values when a market comes up eventually.

Standard slow home charging solutions, although cheap right now, take up a lot of time.

The current cost of EVs and practical (real world) range provided by them is not consumer friendly when compared to the cost of the ICE version of the same car along with the real world mileage it gives.

ICE aren't going away anytime soon neither are EVs the eventual solution.

[shyampsunder]

Originally Posted by TSI_Exhaust

I tend to agree with what ICE_Swift is saying.

There has been a huge price rise in recent times in the UK due to the Russia Ukraine War. Pre-COVID data for a similar case study would bring more clarity.

But I would say that the long term solution is hydrogen based and the immediate one is hybrid. E20 fuel is somewhere in there as well although it might open its own can of worms to deal with.

Post contains many myths and falsehoods but since this thread is about cost and is also a big motivator for people to change technologies, I wanted to talk about the cost of Hydrogen.

Currently, California has multiple Hydrogen refueling stations primarily used by the Toyota Mirai. It costs $21.28 per KG of Hydrogen (Source). The Mirai holds upto 5 KG of Hydrogen and gives a range of 500 KMs (Source). Cost per KM of running the Mirai is 0.21$ per KM which translates to Rs 17 per KM which is higher than diesel and most petrol cars in India.

Now that we have gotten the cost out of the way, let's talk about some incredible benefits that Hydrogen provides us:

1. No option to refuel at home at a cheaper price.

2. Most Hydrogen produced today comes by burning natural gas. Needless to say, not very environment friendly.

3. Green Hydrogen is pointless because you are taking green electricity and converting it to Hydrogen, conversion losses can be as high as 45% but conservatively, we can assume it is 20% (Source). Now the Hydrogen is in the car and again the drive train loses 40% of the energy. (Source). So if 100 units of solar power is used to drive a Hydrogen car, the actual utilization is only 48 units of power with 52 units of power getting wasted in the process. Compare this to an EV powered by solar power whose efficiency is 77% wasting only 23% of the power.

With all this out there, no wonder the Mirai's sales are so poor with YoY sales declining by 20% (Source). After decades of investing and massive marketing, the sales trajectory doesn't indicate a technology that is going to succeed.

The only useful function that Hydrogen seems to perform is that it provides petrolheads the same familiar experience as refuelling the ICE vehicles.

[ritesh_44]

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

Post contains many myths and falsehoods but since this thread is about cost and is also a big motivator for people to change technologies, I wanted to talk about the cost of Hydrogen.

Currently, California has multiple Hydrogen refueling stations primarily used by the Toyota Mirai. It costs $21.28 per KG of Hydrogen (Source). The Mirai holds upto 5 KG of Hydrogen and gives a range of 500 KMs (Source). Cost per KM of running the Mirai is 0.21$ per KM which translates to Rs 17 per KM which is higher than diesel and most petrol cars in India.

Now that we have gotten the cost out of the way, let's talk about some incredible benefits that Hydrogen provides us:

1. No option to refuel at home at a cheaper price.

2. Most Hydrogen produced today comes by burning natural gas. Needless to say, not very environment friendly.

3. Green Hydrogen is pointless because you are taking green electricity and converting it to Hydrogen, conversion losses can be as high as 45% but conservatively, we can assume it is 20% (Source). Now the Hydrogen is in the car and again the drive train loses 40% of the energy. (Source). So if 100 units of solar power is used to drive a Hydrogen car, the actual utilization is only 48 units of power with 52 units of power getting wasted in the process. Compare this to an EV powered by solar power whose efficiency is 77% wasting only 23% of the power.

With all this out there, no wonder the Mirai's sales are so poor with YoY sales declining by 20% (Source). After decades of investing and massive marketing, the sales trajectory doesn't indicate a technology that is going to succeed.

The only useful function that Hydrogen seems to perform is that it provides petrolheads the same familiar experience as refuelling the ICE vehicles.

The only way hydrogen fuel makes sense if its generated from excess renewable capacity which cannot be stored due high storage costs.

For an average customer PHEV makes more sense, but there are not many options in India

[TSI_Exhaust]

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

Cost per KM of running the Mirai is 0.21$ per KM which translates to Rs 17 per KM which is higher than diesel and most petrol cars in India.

Now that we have gotten the cost out of the way, let's talk about some incredible benefits that Hydrogen provides us:

1. No option to refuel at home at a cheaper price.

2. Most Hydrogen produced today comes by burning natural gas. Needless to say, not very environment friendly.

3. Green Hydrogen is pointless because you are taking green electricity and converting it to Hydrogen, conversion losses can be as high as 45% but conservatively, we can assume it is 20% (Source). Now the Hydrogen is in the car and again the drive train loses 40% of the energy. (Source). So if 100 units of solar power is used to drive a Hydrogen car, the actual utilization is only 48 units of power with 52 units of power getting wasted in the process. Compare this to an EV powered by solar power whose efficiency is 77% wasting only 23% of the power.

Hey shyampsunder!

Thanks for the insights. So it seems that the long term solution is not hydrogen based maybe. So either better hybrids and fuel having higher ethanol blends along with evolution of ICE?

[supermax]

Originally Posted by twin-turbo

How Ironic, I shall laugh.��

The EV world has been full of shifting goalposts, so this irony too will be laughed away by the EV-loyalists. For sure, EVs are the future, but where we are now, the issues are far too many and many are far too grave to be ignored, yet they consistently get pooh-poohed away. India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, and many other so-called third-world countries will bear the brunt of dealing with the battery waste from used EVs due to availability of cheap labor, as nobody else will want to deal with cleaning up the mess; they only want the glamorous side of EV adoption, not the uglier side.

Originally Posted by GTO

The only way to charge EVs conveniently & cheaply is at home. Fast charging will always be expensive because it is installed by businesses to make money and there are serious costs.
Charge at home 99% of the time & use public fast chargers when travelling. But not everyone has the provision of home charging. The price they will pay for topping up batteries will always be comparable to petrol.

Totally agree. However, while most EV users today don't seem to mind waiting for 30 odd minutes for their cars to get charged during a road trip, they don't seem to factor that their waiting time is only 30 minutes only because the majority of car owners drive ICE. If the majority switch to EVs, there is no way the current infrastructure scales to the demand. With ICE vehicles, since the time taken to fuel a vehicle is so small, even a small bunk can serve as many vehicles as its storage capacity can serve, whereas charging stations will get bogged down unless they are football-stadium sized stations, with hundreds of outlets. Else, the queues will be so long that it'll end up blocking the highways. And we'll need many of these football-stadium sized stations at fairly regular intervals on major highways, else most of the traffic on the expressways will be towing vehicles lugging away stalled EVs.

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

There are many people who start charging their car at midnight at very cheap price of 7.5 pence/kwh. The peak electricity price of 80pence is taken in this report, also the peak power charges are due to the fossil fuels mix in the electricity, renewables are cheaper.

It's well established that it's cheapest to charge at home, but even that is changing, as electricity providers are wisening up to the changes and they also want their pound of flesh. It's all fun and games right now because most of the world is not running on EVs just yet; when that happens, and the night time load becomes more and more significant, the sweet deals on low price slots will disappear, and instead be replaced by a real-time charging system. For sure the system is skewed in the favor of EV users right now, but how long it'll take for that skew to get corrected is anybody's guess. Sweden for instance has stopped giving an incentive to purchase EVs by disbanding the climate bonus cash-back scheme for new EV purchases, effective November 2022. Many electricity providers (electricity is an open market, with multiple providers, in Sweden and many other European and Western countries) are still providing fixed monthly prices without limits, but these will very likely change as EV ownership becomes more commonplace, due to plain old market-dynamics.

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

I regularly charge at work on free 100% renewable energy.
What is this 100% renewable energy? Is the source of the power you are charging from 100% from wind or solar energy? If using conventional power, this would be an incorrect claim.

Originally Posted by ritesh_44

The only way hydrogen fuel makes sense if its generated from excess renewable capacity which cannot be stored due high storage costs.

For an average customer PHEV makes more sense, but there are not many options in India

PHEVs are either a gateway drug, to help make the transition from ICE to a pure EV, or an attempt to simply kick the can down the road, instead of embracing EV tech fully, depending on who are asking, but nobody really seems totally happy with them. It can however work well in India, given that most people commute in high-traffic situations, where the battery can ensure fewer harmful emissions, and the petrol engine can take over for highway use.

[shyampsunder]

Originally Posted by supermax

Totally agree. However, while most EV users today don't seem to mind waiting for 30 odd minutes for their cars to get charged during a road trip, they don't seem to factor that their waiting time is only 30 minutes only because the majority of car owners drive ICE. If the majority switch to EVs, there is no way the current infrastructure scales to the demand. With ICE vehicles, since the time taken to fuel a vehicle is so small, even a small bunk can serve as many vehicles as its storage capacity can serve, whereas charging stations will get bogged down unless they are football-stadium sized stations, with hundreds of outlets. Else, the queues will be so long that it'll end up blocking the highways. And we'll need many of these football-stadium sized stations at fairly regular intervals on major highways, else most of the traffic on the expressways will be towing vehicles lugging away stalled EVs.


What is this 100% renewable energy? Is the source of the power you are charging from 100% from wind or solar energy? If using conventional power, this would be an incorrect claim.

Haha, such fun-filled posts. We don't have to talk in hypotheticals. Norway has already achieved 80% of new car sales as EVs. Also not referring to the self-charging EV marketing scams that Toyota runs. Referring to cars that are powered 100% powered by a battery.

You can check out how they do highway trips. Trust me, the RSA folks are not minting money by towing away stranded EVs. Also, all the charging networks are privately owned with very little govt involvement.

While the Indian state may be a laggard, I have very high regard for Indian businesses. Today when EVs barely travel intercity, we have private capital investing in robust charging networks that allows someone like me living in Bangalore to travel pretty much anywhere in South India. Most chargers barely get less than 10% utilization. To think that the majority of cars will be electric and that businesses won't want to profit from that by setting up massive charging stations is an exercise in fantasy thinking.

Also, yes the power I use is 100% solar generated. The office has a PPA with an offsite solar farm that provides 100% solar power 24*7*365. I don't know what you mean by conventional power, do you mean power that is produced on ICE vehicles that pollute the environment?

[PreludeSH]

I will use the free 200 units being offered in my state

People in govt are excited with EVs because it brings new investments, jobs etc. They wont let people enjoy and will look for some other way to tax us eventually. In Bengaluru, I will have to use a really large solar arrays. There is dearth of sun light except for 4 months in year.

[ads11]

Originally Posted by aim120

UK has the typical english weather, which is mostly cloudy. It Solar power generation is only around 4% and for roof top installation, it will take them 20 years to break even due to poor solar irradiation and high installation expenses.

They even have plans to import Solar energy all the way from Morroco 3800km via under sea cable.

So there's a bit of a misconception with the general public here (and this was something I was guilty of too) and that's the idea that on a cloudy day, solar panels are useless. While they won't generate at their full capacity, even on a very overcast day, if you have solar panels, you'll still be generating electricity. Acquaintances of mine who have solar panels and smart meters (to show their real time energy use and generation) at home demonstrated this to me, much to my surprise.

What is true though is I don't think the price of panels has come down enough to crack the mainstream but ironically given energy prices in the UK, that threshold is probably looking a lot more worth it for those sick of the sight of their utility bills.

As for the Morocco idea, that's wacky as hell but I guess at some point, you're going to need outside the box thinking like so. We export energy along pipelines, we transfer data along marine fibre optics, soon we might have export cable corridors for renewable electricity.

Coming back to the point raised by this snapshot AA study, it's a bit facetious to claim EV running costs are a dud, especially given the extenuating circumstances with energy costs in the UK. When it comes to transport in the UK nothing makes much sense. In any country taking the train for intercity travel should be cheaper right than driving yourself but not there (privatised rail networks are one of the worst effects of 80s style free market thinking).

Finally as GTO said, for most use cases, slow charging overnight on a regular power line at home should still continue to be cheaper for some time yet. We're still a ways off a point where EVs start becoming a noticeable chunk of private vehicles. Again the usual caveats do apply in terms of those in the fortunate position of not having any roadblocks in terms of home charging or ability to have solar panels, etc etc.