[Burgman_tales]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

So what about people who live in a joint family or have more than 2 kids? We need bigger vehicles to transport them. What if I have a driver , I still need 5 or 6 seats after the driver's seat is taken. This does not mean I purchase a Traveler with 13 seats but an 8 seater or 7 seater UV is fair game.

Didn't expect to see such ridiculous takes on TBHP. Roads and land is obviously limited, should we start demolishing homes so that people can buy huge SUVs? Or is it more reasonable to expect people to have multiple smaller cars ? Or people should use public transport, which is pretty good in most of developed Europe ?

Somebody else was saying why no limits on home size etc. Just because we are car enthusiasts doesn't mean we oppose for the sake of opposing without considering pros, cons and feasibility of different solutions.

Also 180mm width is of a seltos, not sure what value in terms of space vehicles bigger than this bring

[digitalnirvana]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

What is Europe anyway, is it a country?!

So what about people who live in a joint family or have more than 2 kids? We need bigger vehicles to transport them. What if I have a driver , I still need 5 or 6 seats after the driver's seat is taken. This does not mean I purchase a Traveler with 13 seats but an 8 seater or 7 seater UV is fair game.

Usually when the number of houses increase , we increase the quantity of utilities like roads, water supply, electricity supply etc. But when it comes to cars it is the opposite, everything becomes the car's fault and that bicycle is the answer.

But for the most part I see this as a rant - the ageing population in 'Europe' who has enjoyed all the luxuries in their prime time now wants to limit the next generation from having the same things when it's time for them to afford it.

I don't know why its a rant?
Full sized SUVs like an Escalade and pickups / UTEs like the F series are the point of discussion here. They dwarf even regular SUVs and are tall, wide and unwieldy.

This is not at all an issue for minivans / combis / midsize SUVs - they've been on European roads forever and are not a problem. Big families do opt for 7 seater vans or combis all the time. No one is ranting about them. The older generation and the new generation use them without a fuss. So I'm not sure what is with this ageism angle.

European cities have parking scarcity because only modern-ish developments have underground parking. Cities are pedestrian friendly and for the most part have excellent public transport. Its obvious that smaller cars are the answer, and when I say small I don't mean Kei cars or sub 4 meter cars by that. Sedans, crossovers, UVs, minivans and combis all apply.

Of course, people are free to choose whatever fits their use case, but my personal observation is that with the roads and parking infrastructure here, anything bigger than an Ioniq 5 / Evoque is too big and a hassle to park. Also I see Discovery Sports and similar sized cars all the time managing just fine. Its the RAMs and Palisades that people have a problem with.

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

Generally Europe is claimed to be having the best public transport system in the world. But still people use a lot of cars (individual transport). Not all are enthusiasts in every country in Europe. This means there is something seriously wrong.

There will always be folks who still drive - that's even true in Singapore with even better public transport, dirt cheap taxis and sky high costs for private cars. Yet people still want to buy a car there!

Almost all major European cities are very accessible using public transport. Owning a car is a fun thing, not an essential thing like it is in India or most parts of the US.

[sarav100]

The ever increasing vehicle footprint in terms of square footage has been a challenge for cities across the globe with historic infrastructure which wasn’t designed to accommodate larger vehicles. More so in Europe, which cherishes and focuses on preserving historical landmarks and streets.

On my trip to Cyprus(Europe), I had rented a VW UP-a micro car and I couldn’t be more happier with it. It was super easy to maneuver in tight streets of old towns in hilly areas of the island nation and was surprisingly zippy despite its small engine. Parking it was a breeze too and I thoroughly enjoyed every bit of time spent with it.

Moreover, it’s not just Europe that has issues with wider cars. My better half has recently gotten a job in an area of downtown Hamilton that was designed back in the 1800s and everything there is narrower, be it car lanes, pedestrians lanes or bike lanes when compared to other North American cities like Toronto.

Now, we’ve recently got delivery of new Honda Accord, a relatively bloated sedan and the fact that wife is still on her learners license, it has become challenging for her to drive to work. For this purpose itself, it seems like another micro car is needed, something like pre owned Fiat 500, VW Beetle or Mini Cooper that would be better to drive for rush hour commute.

[saubi2299]

Originally Posted by Livnletcarsliv

What about houses, buildings, hotels, private gardens, government offices, etc? They occupy more than appropriate/necessary space than a SUV.

How big a house is needed for a family of 4? How big a hotel is needed for 100-200 guests? How big an office is needed for 100 workers (especially government stand alone buildings)?

There is an inherent difference between public goods (roads) and private goods (homes/office buildings). Whenever public transport is pitched against private cars, road space needed to accommodate the cars is always the opening argument, and emissions come later.

In respect of Govt buildings, I can speak for the govt buildings in India that there is insufficient workspace, insufficient amenities space and insufficient parking spaces. Even in the Rashtrapati Bhawan, lots of offices with hundreds of employees are functioning. So, the entire building is not exactly a home for President. All the new buildings also run out of space very quickly because of the sheer number of employees in Govt. Offices.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by Burgman_tales

Also 180mm width is of a seltos, not sure what value in terms of space vehicles bigger than this bring

In that case a WagonR with 1600mm is more than enough for space and even that is bloated IMO compared to previous generations of WagonR. Mere width can't be taken as value. Both the Seltos and Carens are 1800mm wide, yet in the Seltos one feels hemmed-in after sitting in the Carens.

Sorry. With modern designs, things are going to be wider. Bulky SUV design philosophy, safety reasons, aerodynamic reasons et al. For two comfortable front seats with a centre console armrest wide enough for both the passenger to rest their arms, with storage space on the doors and ability to seat three adults in the rear seat. Add to that the space taken for safety features. So most tend to breach the 1800mm mark. Just looking at the number of modern vehicles (designed post 2000s) that can comfortably seat three at the rear and having width under 1800mm will give an answer.

IMHO, the Toyota Qualis with 1600mm width is more than enough for Indian conditions. Wide enough for three to sit abreast comfortably, yet narrow enough to drive through narrow roads. But with today's safety standards?

[Kosfactor]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

Almost all major European cities are very accessible using public transport. Owning a car is a fun thing, not an essential thing like it is in India or most parts of the US.

Many people I know said the same thing when they first moved into such places , then they grew up , there was a baby on the way - the car was ordered before the delivery date , none of them were small cars, they all could seat 5 as well as store some luggage, stroller etc - Bare essentials for the quality of life that your occupation would afford.

This means whether it's a 5 seater or 8, the width will be ~ 1800- 2000MM.

Imagine taking your pregnant Wife in a bicycle to the nearest train station in some part of Germany now at 3 Degrees celcius, it would be fun indeed.

[mchandra13]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

What is Europe anyway, is it a country?!

So what about people who live in a joint family or have more than 2 kids? We need bigger vehicles to transport them. What if I have a driver , I still need 5 or 6 seats after the driver's seat is taken. This does not mean I purchase a Traveler with 13 seats but an 8 seater or 7 seater UV is fair game.

Usually when the number of houses increase , we increase the quantity of utilities like roads, water supply, electricity supply etc. But when it comes to cars it is the opposite, everything becomes the car's fault and that bicycle is the answer.

But for the most part I see this as a rant - the ageing population in 'Europe' who has enjoyed all the luxuries in their prime time now wants to limit the next generation from having the same things when it's time for them to afford it.

Agree to a large extent. As long as the cars are allowed to sell legally in the region then people are free to buy the same if they have the money and buy it from an authorized dealer . The cars are being sold so that people can buy them. Now if majority in the region vote to ban a certain type of car, then the law will be modified accordingly and sales will be stopped. So I dont understand the fuss. My old Wagon R also can carry 5 people and also has AC and stereo with speakers. Now taking that as an example, can I say that why do you need to buy larger 5 seater SUVs in India with all the roads and traffic we have. A number of us here own luxury cars, SUVs etc. why do we buy all those cars. Each of us buy only what we can afford and what we need. Of course there are cases of indulgences with in that affordability.
What I understand from the OP is the study is making a case for restricting the size of SUVs sold in Europe at the very least, if not banning them altogether.
If as someone has mentioned above, trucks are the only issue, then thats definitely a rant. As per statista market insights, out of the 14.3 Million cars sold in Europe in 2023, <50k are pick up trucks. Thats 0.3% of the overall sales.

If its the problem of space on roads, then for most part, Europe roads were built when their population was 30% of what it is today. They havent expanded these roads(for whatever reasons) much to cater to the growing population needs. Even with the ratio of land and population we have in India, we have been constantly upgrading our infra to meet tomorrow's needs.

I dont want to digress into the ageing population and their thoughts because thats a completely different discussion.

[PreludeSH]

As OP mentions residential areas, even if people took public transport they would park the vehicles on road. Dont think you can 100% rely on public transport alone. Also, when you can afford one why not buy one that you can enjoy for family outings. Everywhere in the world people are moving to bigger SUVs.

Its the parking space that is the issue. There is so much hue and cry about people parking on roads here in Bengaluru. It becomes a hot topic for few days, BBMP will say they will charge parking fees etc and then it dies.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Imagine taking your pregnant Wife in a bicycle to the nearest train station in some part of Germany now at 3 Degrees celcius, it would be fun indeed.

According to some like NotJustBikes, one ought to do the same.

Originally Posted by mchandra13

What I understand from the OP is the study is making a case for restricting the size of SUVs sold in Europe at the very least, if not banning them altogether.
If as someone has mentioned above, trucks are the only issue, then thats definitely a rant. As per statista market insights, out of the 14.3 Million cars sold in Europe in 2023, <50k are pick up trucks. Thats 0.3% of the overall sales.

Low hanging fruit. That is all. If you see old videos of Paris streets, you can see that American cars were imported and used even then. Of course not in huge numbers, but people who can and wanted, did. With present American trucks and SUVs giving acceptable (far cry from old days) fuel economy, a good number of enthusiasts found it easier to import and use these large models. Bad move to go after Tiguans or Passats or Meganes or Tesla Model Ys. Better to go after big ugly SUVs and pickup trucks ,especially the American ones sold in miniscule numbers. After that they will go for the non BEV ones. Then the medium sized ones. Then the small ones. Then tell everyone to take the bus and motorcycles instead. Then say everyone should use trams instead of bus. Then at last, it will reach an utopia of compact 15 minute cities with bicycles for intra-city transport and trains for inter-city transport.

[Lifeographer84]

Reading this and having a hearty laugh especially after taking the D Max to Old Delhi on various occasions, albeit, I am forced to stay on the main roads for obvious reasons.

And best of luck finding a decent parking spot for her, although I have found one thanks to the multi level parking at the Ajmeri Gate railway station...then taking an auto or a battery rickshaw to my destination.

Either ways it's always fun to take her back in history! 😂

[schumi_pete]

I can definitely relate to this. I saw someone posted earlier about narrow underground parking ramps with sharp turns in Paris, and I can attest that this is definitely the case. The fact that most buildings in a city like Paris are very old, and there is pretty much no space to make any modifications, you just have to live with it.

I own two cars, a small Clio 4 RS and a 3 series sedan, and one of the reasons I will never give away the small car, in addition to it being a Clio RS, is the small footprint of the car. Even the 3 series has grown so long and wide over the years that it is impractical to get into underground parking ramps in bigger European cities these days.

In the last week or so, the Paris city council conducted a referendum which passed with 55% of the vote and will now be put into law, tripling the parking charges of SUVs and vehicles heavier than 1.6 tons to reduce pollution inside the city.

[am1m]

You don't have to look to Paris or Europe, even my old neighborhood in Bangalore has been transformed (not for the better!) by cars. As kids we used to have a grand time playing on the streets- nothing fancy, just cycling, using trees as stumps, running. It was bliss. Hardly anyone had a car and those who did, parked inside their houses. Now the same neighborhood has had trees cut down, cars on both sides of the road, and no kids seen anywhere outside.

[volkman10]

Size does matter as SUVs dominate the sales figures adding woes to navigating narrow roads or finding a downtown parking space.

Vehicles are getting larger. Logic says a larger vehicle will also be heavier, though the Paris ruling only addresses weight. Take a closer look at sizes overall, especially since bigger cars haven't necessarily translated to infrastructure changes for more space to use them.

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