[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by roms

Now let me butt in here.I keep hearing that the Baleno is a great VFM proposition.If its the LXi everyone is talking about,I agree completely.But I really dont think the vXi is great VFM.At present,the Baleno Vxi sells for 7.80 lakhs on road (Mumbai reg)!That is some serious money folks,that is NHC,Verna,Fiesta 1.6 territory.

I dont know about Mumbai, but a Vxi in Chennai with just the company/dealer offered discounts could come for as low as 6.5L. Don't understand why Bombay prices have to be 1.3L more than Chennai even with Octroi whatever. Maybe you should recheck the prices.

BTW, there is no such thing as territory or clearly defined segment etc. Its all about what the buyer thinks there is value in. You mentioned an entry level sedan class where you think the Baleno belonged. But if you look at the specs/strengths (actually weaknesses), it is the NHC that rightly belongs there. If that car was built as it is now, by any manufacturer other than Honda, I don't think it would have found buyers even at 5L.

[roms]

Thanks Supremo,if a Vxi can come for as low as 6.5 L after discounts and all,then I consider it good VFM.Lets see how close we can get to that figure in Mumbai.Infact,I just saw the feature list for the Lxi and it does have some good features-centre arm rest for seats,electronic rear view mirrors, and adjustable steering wheel.
I know there is no clear segmentation in the market,but then the NHC does not purely sell for the badge in my opinion.It now looks much better than the previous NHC,it has that upmarket feel definitely,it has light controls and is a brilliant city car, it has a brilliant back seat for the chauffer driven,the interiors feel and look excellent and the overall refinement levels of the engine and the car is better than Baleno.For that matter even the Verna feels luxurious and refined in comparison.So a 7-9 lakh sedan has to have that extra bit of style over substance so that it can satisfy its target market.That is where the Baleno would lose out.So a Honda City may or may not sell at 5 L if it was from a manufacturer other than Honda(and I agree),in the same way a Baleno cannot sell in the 7-9 L bracket in its present avatar.Hence,it belongs to a lower segment of cars IMO.
Infact,I consider my Palio 1.6 and baleno very similar.Both are brilliant driver's cars (both scoring over each other in some areas),both deserve to sell more.But both these cars belong to the similar segment and would'nt sell at the price of an NHC.

[supremeBaleno]

but then the NHC does not purely sell for the badge in my opinion. It now looks much better than the previous NHC, it has that upmarket feel definitely,it has light controls and is a brilliant city car, it has a brilliant back seat for the chauffer driven,the interiors feel and look excellent and the overall refinement levels of the engine and the car is better than Baleno.

Remove the badge and then we can see how it fares. For most of us, the brand is important, and that is partly correct, because branding, in most cases, helps us distinguish the wheat from the chaff. It provides us the needed assurance of quality. Given this, we would ignore a few issues like looks, lack of power for the highways, lack of safety features etc and would still plonk down 8L for the NHC, when we have better alternatives for less. I had the NHC also in my sights and also admire brand Honda, so I guess I know what I am talking about.

So a Honda City may or may not sell at 5L if it was from a manufacturer other than Honda (and I agree), in the same way a Baleno cannot sell in the 7-9 L bracket in its present avatar.Hence,it belongs to a lower segment of cars IMO.

Pricing is not the constant, the specs are and IMO, they should decide segments. A new product will sell good initially for a high price. Down the line, price reduction would be done to attract more buyers. Does this mean that we keep changing the segment to which it belongs? The Corolla is now cheaper by a lakh or more due to market dynamics (read Civic). Does it mean that we slot it at a lower segment ?

Infact, I consider my Palio 1.6 and baleno very similar.Both are brilliant driver's cars (both scoring over each other in some areas),both deserve to sell more. But both these cars belong to the similar segment and would'nt sell at the price of an NHC.

You looked at the similarities, but ignored the differences. One is a hatch and rightly belongs at the price levels where it is pegged currently (along with the other hatches), while the other is a sedan. Clubbing them together just based on a couple of similarities, ignoring other major differences, is IMO pointless. It is sort of like saying that the PalioD and the Octy are in the same segment because both sport 1.9L engines.

[roms]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Pricing is not the constant, the specs are and IMO, they should decide segments. A new product will sell good initially for a high price. Down the line, price reduction would be done to attract more buyers. Does this mean that we keep changing the segment to which it belongs? The Corolla is now cheaper by a lakh or more due to market dynamics (read Civic). Does it mean that we slot it at a lower segment ?

I never said the price of a car should define segments.Even I know that making a car cheaper over a period does not change its segment.The Baleno was initially priced at 9 Lakhs.It may have features comparable or better to its rivals.But it did not sell.Why?Looks and style.
Today the market has new players and a 7-9 lakh car sells first for its looks and styling(inside and out),refinement levels and brand image.And Maruti does not have a bad brand image.Then why doesnt the car sell at 7-9 lakhs? Because the car is dated now,it doesnt look or feel special in comparison to City,Fiesta,Optra,Verna.So it just wont sell at that price point.
And my bad,I said Palio instead of Petra.But its the exact same car with a boot right? And I believe the baleno and Petra are quite alike and hence are in the same category.If you think a Baleno is better,it may be.No point discussing that.
You also said that its better to buy a cheaper car which has more features in comparison to the city.That is my whole point..how is the Baleno Vxi cheap if it sells for 7.3 lakhs on road Mumbai?
And as far as safety is concerned,the City would fare much better in a crash in comparison to Baleno.
Anyways sir,I guess we are now hogging someones thread here,so its better we take this offline.Thank you anyways for the info on discounts.

[kiranpashtakar]

I just saw the feature list for the Lxi and it does have some good features-centre arm rest for seats,electronic rear view mirrors, and adjustable steering wheel.

Roms Baleno LXI has all these features...
Only features VXI would have added to all the other is
1) Rear Window Defogger
2) Alloy wheels
3) Power antenna
4) Spoiler

[supremeBaleno]

If you meant the Petra, then you have a point. It is IMO in the same class and a fair comparison should be possible.

A Baleno at anything above 7L is not value today. At today's Chennai prices of 6.5L, the Vxi is one awesome VFMcar. If the Bombay prices you quoted are true, then the Baleno is a strict no-no. My point was it does not belong at the entry level sedan segment which has basic sedans in the 1.3litre class, that are less powerful, smaller and with less space and features.

Originally Posted by roms

And as far as safety is concerned, the City would fare much better in a crash in comparison to Baleno.

I am assuming you have some facts to support this statement, which would be welcome.

Originally Posted by roms

Anyways sir, I guess we are now hogging someones thread here,so its better we take this offline.Thank you anyways for the info on discounts.

I guess so. But since we remain on the topic of Baleno, I would think it is not way off the mark.

[roms]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

safety Issue -I am assuming you have some facts to support this statement, which would be welcome.

I guess this has been discussed on this forum sometime back.Anyways,here goes -
SUZUKI Baleno 1.6 - Adult rating-1.5/5 stars, pedestrian-2/4 stars
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800080]http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=2&id2=42[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
"The Baleno is not equipped with a driver airbag as standard in all EU markets, so Euro NCAP tested this car without one."
This car would be very similar to the Baleno sold here without airbags

HONDA Jazz (Our NHC) -Adult - 4/5 stars,pedestrian-3/4

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#800080]http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_ratings/details.php?id1=1&id2=188[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

"The ’04 model year Jazz comes with dual frontal airbags, front belts with pre-tensioners and load limiters, ISOFix mountings and top tethers to rear outer seats, a seat belt reminder for the driver and ABS as standard. Side airbags are optional extras"
Although this Jazz/City has a lot of safety equipment which our NHC is devoid of(shamefully), dont you think the City would fare better being a newer car.Cant say how many stars it would score without the safety equipment though
Whatever said and done,Baleno is a great car in the Indian context(at the right price).Infact,saw a brand new white Vxi as I stepped out of my house today.It looked fabulous and quite contrary to what I've said in my earlier posts regarding its looks.White with company alloys looks great!

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by roms

Although this Jazz/City has a lot of safety equipment which our NHC is devoid of (shamefully), dont you think the City would fare better being a newer car. Cant say how many stars it would score without the safety equipment though

I knew that you would use the Jazz for comparison, as has been done previously on the forum, which is sad because
1) they are not the same cars (even though based on same platform).
2) the NHC does not have the safety features that the Jazz was tested with.
Without those features, what makes you think the NHC will even get the ratings the Baleno got ? A new car does not make a safer car, AFAIK.

[roms]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I knew that you would use the Jazz for comparison, as has been done previously on the forum, which is sad because
1) they are not the same cars (even though based on same platform).
2) the NHC does not have the safety features that the Jazz was tested with.
Without those features, what makes you think the NHC will even get the ratings the Baleno got ? A new car does not make a safer car, AFAIK.

The Jazz has been used on the forum since NHC has been derived from the same platform.So atleast the basic structural rigidity is going to be similar if not exactly the same.It is on this understanding that I said the NHC would score over Baleno in safety.And i only mentioned safety because in of your replies,you mentioned the NHC has lack of safety features and yet it sells.But when a car scores a dismal 1.5 stars,its not wise to degrade another car for lack of safety.
I dont even want to know which is safer,Baleno or NHC.I am only interested in the overall scheme of things.I love the Baleno for what it is .A car is a culmination of all things positive and negative,no car is bad and no car is really "supreme".
Frankly, I'm not too fond of NHC myself.I prefer driving a Baleno over NHC,and I prefer my Palio 1.6 S10 any given day over a Baleno,or for that matter even a Skoda,but that does'nt mean these cars are rubbish.All of them score over my Palio in some way or the other and vice versa.
Anyways,my purpose for being on this thread was over long back.So I'm outta here.

[roms]

Originally Posted by kiranpashtakar

Roms Baleno LXI has all these features...
Only features VXI would have added to all the other is
1) Rear Window Defogger
2) Alloy wheels
3) Power antenna
4) Spoiler

Kiran,you have not mentioned whether you own the Lxi or VXi.
I believe its an lxi?
You've missed out on a few features-
5)New design for alloy wheels
6)Tubeless radials
7)Mp3 player,
8) fog lamps
9)auto a/c
10) height adjustable seats
Just saw the brochure,so I know.Thanks anyways for the info.

[kiranpashtakar]

FOG LAMPS This is amazing
Fog Lamps cost 13K the last time I enquired, has there been any reduction in prices??

[shuvc]

Originally Posted by roms

Kiran,you have not mentioned whether you own the Lxi or VXi.
I believe its an lxi?
You've missed out on a few features-
5)New design for alloy wheels
6)Tubeless radials
7)Mp3 player,
8) fog lamps
9)auto a/c
10) height adjustable seats
Just saw the brochure,so I know.Thanks anyways for the info.

You missed out some more extras in the VXi (below in italics) .. let me try and consolidate..

1) Rear Window Defogger
2) Alloy wheels
3) Power antenna
4) Spoiler
5) Wider Tubeless Tyres
6) 4 speaker Mp3 audio system,
7) Auto a/c
8) Height adjustable driver seat

9) Remote Keyless Entry
10) Leather covered steering wheel
11) Silver finish dash

12) This one is not exactly a feature - but your car gets insured with all the above features since they are factory fitted. Warranty, I think, also covers all of the above.

I don't think fog lamps are extra on the VXi. At least mine didn't have them. Please cross-check. You could try and bargain for them though.

[roms]

Shuvc,
thanks for filling up the features I missed out.I confirmed with Auto Vista(Bandra-Mumbai) about the addition of fog lamps on Vxi.Factory fitted Fog lamps are standard equipment on the vxi.Must be added off late.The brochure stated some new features like new design alloys,which look great.
The total discount available if one purchases outright is 40000/- for the Lxi and 50000/- for the Vxi.PLus he agreed a paltry 5000/- in addition to this.So the Lxi costs 6.85 L (after ins & reg) - 45K = 6.4 L on road mumbai and Vxi costs 7.8L-55K = 7.25L.
According to the sales guy baleno sales have really picked up in the past few months and hence discounts have come down from 70k in july to 40 K at present.May be end of the year,the discounts will shoot up again.
There is an additional 4.5% discount on the loan amt. if one takes the finance route.

[v1p3r]

Maybe we should organise a track day only for the Balenos.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Maybe we should organise a track day only for the Balenos.

Now, thats a nice idea. Or even maybe a Baleno meet or something from the southern states.

@roms, if you look up the threads on the forum, you would find that discounts on the Baleno vary from person to person. And from my experience and from that of others here, I find that your bargaining skills get you both the best price in town and the best finance. Get quotes from all dealers, pit them one against the other and get the rock bottom price. Same for finance, deal with different banks and get the lowest. Forget that you are shopping for a car and assume you are in a pavement shop. Might sound strange, but that is the way it is. And I guess this applies for other cars also today, when the competition is so intense, with lots of models to choose from.

My friend had bought the base model Accent a few days before I got my Baleno. The on-road price for the Lxi (even after advertised discounts) was more than what it was for the Accent. Also the EMI I was getting for the same loan amount was much more than what he was paying. I told the dealer, that if I do not get the Lxi at the price and EMI of the Accent, I would go for the Accent. Took some phone calls and bargaining, but finally I got the deal I wanted.

Just to get a hang of prices of the competition in Mumbai and w.r.t. the Baleno. You mention that the Vxi on road is 7.25L there. How much does the NHC base model come for ?