[vj123]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Ok, except for isolated incidents, I don't think manufacturers change the parts in later years. LCI or mid-cycle refresh or model changes definitely.

Most OEMs demand Tier 1 suppliers to offer certain amount of cost cutting on their products for every MYs even if its a safety critical components and that is a whole different story. So components are continuously evolving for each MY even though its for the same vehicle.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Regarding your thoughts about being raw or more fun, have you driven both cars or are going by internet reviews? Newer M3 may not be available, so if you can find an M5, that will be closer to the new M3. Take a drive of both if possible.

As of now, i have not Test driven either of them. There are hardly any M2s in dealer lots new and used in a range of 200 miles. Dealers are having few brand new M3s but hardly anyone is offering TDs.

Only options are to do a M driving course where i can compare M2 and M4 back to back or travel to nearby states and visit dealers who are having used M2s. There isnt any BMW M driving events nearby as well. With current scenario and a toddler at home, i am unable to travel far. Bought most of my vehicle out of state and we always made a good trip out of it but that's not a possibility now. So I am moving forward with my instinct and info available in public forums.

[mobike008]

Note from Support: Could you please add full-stops after your sentences. Visibility gets messed up otherwise. Thank you

Originally Posted by vj123

Only options are to do a M driving course where i can compare M2 and M4 back to back or travel to nearby states and visit dealers who are having used M2s. There isnt any BMW M driving events nearby as well. With current scenario and a toddler at home, i am unable to travel far. Bought most of my vehicle out of state and we always made a good trip out of it but that's not a possibility now. So I am moving forward with my instinct and info available in public forums.

Vibin, Asking for advice is fine. But, without taking a test driving and committing to a certain model like M2C which seems to be in your mind purely from the old school driving experience perspective and DCT gearbox is all hearsay and other people's opinion.

I would highly recommend you drive both these cars back to back as well as big daddy-M5 to know what works for you best.

I would not plonk 70 grand without a TD. If that means, spending some dough on a track day, so be it (especially since its going to be a long time car for you).

You can even convince the dealerships to give you a TD- I doubt if that is possible as most dealers cringe giving TD's for M cars.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Regarding your thoughts about being raw or more fun, have you driven both cars or are going by internet reviews? Newer M3 may not be available, so if you can find an M5, that will be closer to the new M3. Take a drive of both if possible.

Getting a test drive is a bit of a struggle as most BMW dealerships act haughty in this department. It needs a bit of convincing and perhaps I can help Vibin and take him to the dealership in my Bimmer so he gets the right attention.

P.S : Going from experience as when I test drove my X3 M40i, I had arrived at the dealership in my sister's X5 and that lit up their eyes and made them give us due attention.

[vj123]

Originally Posted by mobike008

Vibin, Asking for advice is fine. But, without taking a test driving and committing to a certain model like M2C which seems to be in your mind purely from the old school driving experience perspective and DCT gearbox is all hearsay and other people's opinion

When i was trying to find an allocation last month, i got some really good contacts of some nearby dealers. Real issue is the inventory, you can hardly find any new or used M2s in any BMW dealers within 200 miles from our area. M3s are hot properties as they just launched it and none of the dealers would offer TDs.

I have seen several people in Bimmerpost buying M2s without a TD and extremely happy with it. I understand that people in forums are a very small percentage but petroheads think alike.

When i bought my first GTI, i was going to pull the trigger just based on the info i had. But i did a very short test drive of GTI and GLI as wifey preferred a sedan. Few minutes into the drive, we zeroed in the GTI without any second thoughts and infact it even exceeded my expectations.

I would definitely get a TD when my dealer gets a M2 in their inventory sometime next month.

[akash_v12]

M2 + Minivan seems like a better combination to me. With the M2, you get a much smaller footprint/nimble car, making it more fun to drive. IMO, the M2 also looks better considering it's not got that huge grille which I've still not accustomed to.

Lastly, this video of Jason from Hagerty also holds some important points. (Do note that is an M2 CS, but I feel many points hold true for the M2 as well.)

Link

[androdev]

I feel design and size preferences should outweigh the minor differences between transmission, etc.

DCT is a slick manual gearbox that has failed to evolve to behave like a smooth slush box. It ended up being a one-trick pony with limited market. North America was quick to reject it.

ZF-8HP is a slush box that has successfully evolved to behave like a slick manual gearbox. It has become so versatile to be doing duties in SUVs, Rolls Royces and sports cars. It is an engineering marvel. North America can't have enough of it.

//M cars are meant to offer race-car technology tweaked into sports cars - at least make us believe so ;-) It needs to have some quirky and exotic vibes. It should force you to make many compromises in order to do just one thing exceptionally well. DCT shares the same spirit. It is the opposite of having 5-6 flavours of M: M-kit, M-prefix, M, MC, MCS, MCSL, etc. all smooth and plush ready for your office commute. Just software settings where it matters.

[vj123]

Originally Posted by akash_v12

M2 + Minivan seems like a better combination to me. With the M2, you get a much smaller footprint/nimble car, making it more fun to drive.

I decided replacing both vehicles in my garage as it made more sense to get extremes of the spectrum: One comfortable, spacious family hauler and the second vehicle to be extremely fun and agile.

Originally Posted by akash_v12

IMO, the M2 also looks better considering it's not got that huge grille which I've still not accustomed to.

Even though i like M2 looks, not a big fan of tail lamps. It feels like they spent a lot of time on all sections but that one.

Originally Posted by androdev

I feel design and size preferences should outweigh the minor differences between transmission, etc.

Actually DCT is one of the main reasons for adding M2 into the mix. I use manual mode for most part of my driving and have really enjoyed the DSG on both my MK7 GTIs. When i was initial looking for my A4 manual replacement in 2016, i pretty much zeroed in the GTI for the transmission.

Originally Posted by androdev

ZF-8HP is a slush box that has successfully evolved to behave like a slick manual gearbox. It is an engineering marvel.

ZF has done a great job on that one.

Originally Posted by androdev

//M cars are meant to offer race-car technology tweaked into sports cars - at least make us believe so ;-) It needs to have some quirky and exotic vibes. It should force you to make many compromises in order to do just one thing exceptionally well. DCT shares the same spirit. It is the opposite of having 5-6 flavours of M: M-kit, M-prefix, M, MC, MCS, MCSL, etc. all smooth and plush ready for your office commute. Just software settings where it matters.

Not a big fan of brand dilution but all OEMs find that as a way to milk money from customers. Here is the breakdown from BMW.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by vj123

Actually DCT is one of the main reasons for adding M2 into the mix. I use manual mode for most part of my driving and have really enjoyed the DSG on both my MK7 GTIs. When i was initial looking for my A4 manual replacement in 2016, i pretty much zeroed in the GTI for the transmission.

I am also a big fan of dual clutch technology but ZF8 has made the dual clutch irrelevant. With the notable exception of rear/mid engined cars that can't fit ZF8, most have abandoned dual clutch technology in favour of ZF8. If you dig a bit deeper into ZF8, you will see why:

1. There is no torque converter used except during starting and stopping for smoothness. It uses locking clutch during all other times.
2. All gear shifts involve just two shift elements (disengage X and engage Y to select any gear). This is DCT magic of blistering responsiveness. In fact, ZF8 can directly skip gears. In can do direct 8th to 2nd for instance.
3. Fast computers and perfectly optimised programming.

The implication is that it is essentially a DCT-like transmission for all practical purposes.

Having said all that I have a soft corner for M2 due to its size and design. DCT should be a secondary criteria given how good ZF8 is - you can drive in manual mode all day and I am sure it will match your GTI shift experience. Of course, a test drive will clear all the confusion but don't underestimate ZF8.

[vj123]

Originally Posted by androdev

Having said all that I have a soft corner for M2 due to its size and design. DCT should be a secondary criteria given how good ZF8 is - you can drive in manual mode all day and I am sure it will match your GTI shift experience. Of course, a test drive will clear all the confusion but don't underestimate ZF8.

I am planning to visit my dealer tomorrow and TD vehicles which might be closer what i am considering. Hopefully it clears things out.

Its pretty amazing to see that even poll results from the beginning are really close.

Thanks to everyone who voted!

[carthick1000]

OT:
I have not much experience with M cars and also not with DCT in BMWs. But I have a slightly off topic suggestion, which you might like. I just collected some of the key points you mentioned throughout and
came up with this recommendation, if you don't mind the lack of extra seats and a different brand. But one thing it delivers purely is fun!

Mazda MX-5 RF

1. Agile and much lighter than BMWs.
2. 6 speed manual shift has the most satisfying shift.
3. NA engine redlines at about 7500rpm
4. Targatop for those spring summer days
5. Double wishbone front and multilink rear suspension
6. Reliable and fuss free
7. Half the price of M and leaves you ample room to spend on upgrading and maintaining track kit
8. Sit much close to the ground than normal cars. Gives a feeling of speed even when driving within legal limits.

I would have recommended Alpine A110, if you lived in Europe. But unfortunately, US markets don't enjoy this thoroughbred roadster.

[vj123]

Originally Posted by carthick1000

Mazda MX-5 RF

I would have recommended Alpine A110, if you lived in Europe. But unfortunately, US markets don't enjoy this thoroughbred roadster.

Thanks for the suggestion. Current gen Miatas are great vehicles and offers a great package for the price. Its the choice of weapon for many track rats. A fellow member brought one during our last tBHP meet in the area.

I am not considering it for below reasons.
- I drove manuals all my life and even had to customer order a manual A4 as i hardly found one in dealer inventory when i bought mine in 2013. But i had knee issues sometime in the last decade and manuals are not an option.
- Only considering 4 seaters as i might used it for short family trips. This was a reason how wifey was convinced on the purchase.
- I am not a fan of convertibles even though its a hardtop.

[haskelerator]

With all our screen fatigue. I don’t agree with the trend of having too many screens in the car. The m2c has all the above going for it - dct, smaller, lighter but most of all no digital instrument cluster distraction. With BMW joining this trend only Porsche remains with an analog cluster. Enough of screens and graphics and touch controls. Hope this trend reverses at least in sports cars.

[azeemhafiz]

I voted for the M3c, but that's only because M5c LCI was not an option

A few pointers for your consideration

1. The interior quality on the M2C. I know it looks the same as the old gen F80 M3, but it feels inferior in terms of touch and feel. I know you have had the GTI before and GTI has a good quality, solid build interior that is superior in my view to the M2C and the F80 M3. The new G80 has good interiors from a touch and feel perspective and the M5 LCI is on another level. I specifically say interior quality because on a daily driving basis, this is the one feature that matters the most (to me anyway). 

2. The roads you drive in. The M2C is excellent in autocross style corners, but the dynamics feels off in fast sweeping corners (like racetrack). It feels perfectly comfortable and a lot of fun in autocross mode, but on track the dynamics of the M3 / M5 is much much better. Fun fact: The M5C is within a second of the M2C on autocross setup they have at the BMW performance center at Thermal. Given the size, this just blows my mind

3. DCT is one of those techs that I have loved and hated at the same time on the same drive. Its a lot of fun to see the way it pulls, kicks you back into the seat on hard pulls but when coming to a stop, in slow moving traffic its extremely jerky. DCT on BMW is way more fun than DSG on GTI (I do not recollect if your GTI was manual or DSG), but its not as smooth in a slow moving traffic scenario. The ZF in its current tune (on the F90) is not a bad gearbox at all. Did not miss the DCT one bit.


In my view, just go with the car that sparks your heart, we can make cases for or against each one of them all day long

No matter which one you get, sign up for the 2 day M school (and then subsequently, the advanced program, preferably at Thermal). This would really get you to get the most out of the car.

Congratulations in advance!

[vj123]

Originally Posted by haskelerator

With all our screen fatigue. I don’t agree with the trend of having too many screens in the car. The m2c has all the above going for it - dct, smaller, lighter but most of all no digital instrument cluster distraction. With BMW joining this trend only Porsche remains with an analog cluster. Enough of screens and graphics and touch controls. Hope this trend reverses at least in sports cars.

M2c comes in as a great package. From OEM pov, digital screens can offer several configurations (gimmicks) and issue can be resolved with OTA updates. Sadly, that would be the future.

Originally Posted by azeemhafiz

I voted for the M3c, but that's only because M5c LCI was not an option

Hahaha, i am glad i didnt include them in the list as i know how poll results would have swung If i add M5c into the mix, i have to take preowned route and i am skeptical on getting a preowned performance vehicle. I would be more comfortable buying a single owner well maintained unmodded vehicle but they are really hard to come by.

Originally Posted by azeemhafiz

[*]The interior quality on the M2C. I know it looks the same as the old gen F80 M3, but it feels inferior in terms of touch and feel. I know you have had the GTI before and GTI has a good quality, solid build interior that is superior in my view to the M2C and the F80 M3. The new G80 has good interiors from a touch and feel perspective and the M5 LCI is on another level.

Yeah VAG interiors are definitely a step ahead compared to BMWs even while considering a segment lower. G87s will carry over tactical touch buttons from G80 and i am not big fan of them. I was planning to check out the M3c inventory with my dealer last weekend but my sales guy was out of town. I guess i will have a better idea once i visit them this week.

Originally Posted by azeemhafiz

Fun fact: The M5C is within a second of the M2C on autocross setup they have at the BMW performance center at Thermal. Given the size, this just blows my mind

Great insight!

Originally Posted by azeemhafiz

[*]DCT is one of those techs that I have loved and hated at the same time on the same drive. Its a lot of fun to see the way it pulls, kicks you back into the seat on hard pulls but when coming to a stop, in slow moving traffic its extremely jerky. DCT on BMW is way more fun than DSG on GTI (I do not recollect if your GTI was manual or DSG), but its not as smooth in a slow moving traffic scenario. The ZF in its current tune (on the F90) is not a bad gearbox at all. Did not miss the DCT one bit.[/list]In my view, just go with the car that sparks your heart, we can make cases for or against each one of them all day long

Both my MK7s were DSGs and this transmission was the main reason why i got into GTIs. DSG is the first automatic i used after driving manuals and I guess my mind is am stuck with that. They are a bummer in stop and go traffic scenario and i guess that's the trade off. Only dual clutches left in the market are DSG and PDKs and i am not ready for a P car yet.

Originally Posted by azeemhafiz

No matter which one you get, sign up for the 2 day M school (and then subsequently, the advanced program, preferably at Thermal). This would really get you to get the most out of the car.

Thats on my to do list. Other than the fact that Thermal is a proper track, any reason you would pick the courses in Thermal over the one is Spartanburg?

Originally Posted by azeemhafiz

Congratulations in advance!

Thanks for your comprehensive summary.

[azeemhafiz]

Originally Posted by vj123

Thats on my to do list. Other than the fact that Thermal is a proper track, any reason you would pick the courses in Thermal over the one is Spartanburg?


Thanks for your comprehensive summary.

I'm just partial because that's where I went for my 2 day and then later advanced

Besides, Thermal raceway is a phenomenal, phenomenal racetrack w/ great surface

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by azeemhafiz

I'm just partial because that's where I went for my 2 day and then later advanced

Besides, Thermal raceway is a phenomenal, phenomenal racetrack w/ great surface

That's wonderful to know.

I have this free offer waiting to be taken up and I was thinking of Thermal as the location instead of Spartan as I would be moving to West Coast soon. Besides the point, have lot of friends in LA to catch up too

How was your overall experience? Which M cars did you drive? Any pictures/videos that you can share? Would be interesting to know and also sets an expectation on the overall experience.