Roll cage in a City Vtec?

GTO · 17th February 2004, 19:52

Hey Shan2nu,

Just heard that you are planning to get a roll cage installed in your Honda Vtec? Are you planning to start using the Vtec in competition?

I got the impression that you will be using the roll cage only for road use, in which case you will find it immensely impractical (obtrusions, unnecesary weight, looks).

GTO

Shan2nu · 17th February 2004, 20:38

No plans of using it in competitions yet. To compete, i'll have to change the suspenssion n stuff.

The thing is that my mom is planning to upgrade to a D segment car "Hopefully the Accord". If that happens, the Vtec will be mine....all mine.

And the rule of the family is, you can do anything with what's yours. I realise that fixing a roll cage will require a hell lot of changes inside the car.

But if i'm gonna drive this thing like a race car, i'll have turn it into one.

I'm still thinking about the roll cage. After looking at Storm's Skyline and how it helped get the occupants out of trouble, i felt the need for it.

like Rehaan said, you can never be too careful......but i don't wanna leave any leaf unturned as fas as safety goes.

Regards...
Shan2nu

GTO · 17th February 2004, 20:57

Hey Shan2nu,

Why not upgrade the pair of alloys and put in some meaty rubber first? I strongly recommend GoodYear eagle F1's to almost every gashead looking for a change, since I have raced on this rubber for three years. They are really a cut above all the Michelins and Bridgestones (Not the Pole positions, mind you). 195/205's alongwith some slick 5 spokes alloys have done it for the Vtec!

All the best with the Accord plans...There really is no car that can hold a candle to it, in the 15-20 lakh category.

Now imagine having access to two Honda Vtec engines whenever you want...

GTO

Shan2nu · 17th February 2004, 21:39

Yeah, it's time i got those tyres changed. But i don't wanna overdo it. I'm thinking more in terms of 205/50 R15.

The Accord surely will lighten up my life. Afterall, it's the 2nd quickest car to 100 kmph, in India (after the SL500).

I might even consider replacing the Vtec engine on my City with a normal 1.5. I spoke to a few Mechs in Blore and they all said the Vtec engine is too complex to be tuned.

One guy even promised me 200bhp from a normal 1.5. I believe him coz he's already got a Carb Esteem engine producing around 100-110 bhp.

Regards...
Shan2nu

v12 · 17th February 2004, 23:25

hey shantanu, if u plannin to fit a roll cage, i guess u r really serious abt it. Are you planning to turn it into a rally car??? Is it true that to install a roll-cage u have to remove the rear seats???

One important question is [No offence meant] Why do you wanna install a roll cage?

You are not gonna take part in rallies. As M5 said a rollcage is impractical for road use. Also it'll be an expensive affair. Also, what if you have to carry some passengers?

Theres no rear seat. Its really something to think about. Instead i suggest you to spend the money in some good engine mods.

Also if you really wanna transform your car into a racecar, transform it completely. Chuck the a/c, power-windows, door pads. Add Recaro seats [they are lighter], good light alloys, wider tyres. And if ur moding ur engine to 200bhp, add rear discs too. Give it a good shade of red or yellow paint. A nice free flow exhaust.

Shan2nu · 18th February 2004, 01:57

Be it a highway or a race track, a roll cage is there to protect you.

Ofcourse for normal driving it doesn't really matter. I just want to b on the safer side.

I still haven't made up my mind about it.

Installing a roll cage is a major modification, i'll have to think a lot on this before i do anything.

Regards...
Shan2nu

Rehaan · 18th February 2004, 05:28

Hi Shan2nu,

I see your point. I have also thought about roll cages a lot (ie if i had an unlimited budget)...

A rollcage on the track is a necessity. I think everyone will agree to that.

A rollcage for a road-going car has its benefits and disadvantages. The benefits being the same, it probably will help save your life, (along with proper anatomically correct racing seats and a 4/5 point harness.
The disadvantages for a road-going-rollcage seems to be a bit more.
1> added weight (but i would not wiegh this against safety)
2> as v12 and m5 said - you will probably have to lose the rear seats, and it will be impractical
3> it has no use as a "roll" cage unless u have racing seats (Rs. ~9k each) and 4point harness
4> and the largest safety concern in my mind is that when theres a roll cage in a car it is difficult to have full visibility around corners (as the A-pillar and rollcage block more of your view), this is ok on the track as you might know the course, but more importantly there are no cows standing on the road around the corner or idiots cutting corners on the highways or children running across the road.

well thats what i have to say,
let me know what u think.

oh.and also - i would agree that you should upgrade your tires (u might want to consider keeping the old alloys if looks are not entirely important to you and u have a few bad roads u travel on in which case the 14" will be better than 15")
I'd say the tires are the most important part of the car (except in drift racing ;-]

Also, i know people who could tune a m800 to put out 130bhp.......but it would only work for 6 weeks.....before the engine self destructs. There is a right balance between durability and performance and it looks like 200bhp from a 1.5city engine is not striking that balance... or anywhere near it.

cya later
Rehaan.

adityapd · 26th February 2004, 17:51

Hi Shan2nu

do u have any idea as to how can these mechs tune normal 800 and 1300 cc engines to deliver almost double the bhp ?

Does it have any adverse effect on the life of the engine ? i am really amazed

!!!

aditya

GTO · 26th February 2004, 18:16

Aditya,

There really is no hard and fast rule that extracting more power out of an engine will have an adverse effect on the life of it...but what really depends is HOW you extract the power. For e.g. if an intercooler + turbo-charger or a super-charger is added to a stock engine (provided the engine components are tough enough to withstand the extra pressures created by the turbo) by an expert using high quality in both parts and execution, the engine life alongwith power and fuel-average will actually increase.

Buttttttttttttttt most street-side performance shops actually increase the stress and wear+tear of the engine, in their aim to make it pump out more bhp. Incompatible manifolds and exhaust systems, inappropriately oversized pistons etc. have a huge detrimental effect on your powerplant. If the add-on products have been well-engineered and designed for that particular application (e.g. K&N cold air intakes for the Honda Accord) then the performance is for you to enjoy.

Another factor is the tuned RPM. As a general thumb-rule the more the RPM, the greater the wear and tear of the engine. While an street going version of a Honda Accord 3000cc powerplant will pump out 240 bhp, a Formula One 3000cc powerplant will churn out 900 bhp!! While the Accord would produce its 240 horses at 5000-7000 rpm, the F1 engine does so at almost 19,000 rpm!! While the Accord engine will last you 500,000 kms....the entire f1 engine will have to be rebuilt after a single race (300 kms). Among other things, the higher RPM is one of the strongest contributing factors to the power output of the formula one engine. Street tuners are known to make their powerplants run at far higher rpms in an effort to source more power...but at the cost of engine life.

If you ask me, a carbed esteem with 110 horses or a City engine with 200 horses will be a load of fun...but a very short-lived fun factor at that. Dont waste your money on doubling the power output (unless you have wads of it or dont intend to use the car save for a single day a week):laugh:

GTO

Shan2nu · 26th February 2004, 19:24

Exactly, once tuned for excess power, you will no longer be able to use your car on a daily basis.

200bhp from a Vtec might sound amazing but, the question is, whether the car is designed to take such power.

I've seen 6,000bhp dragsters on TV, where the whole chassis bent when he accelerated. in another case the pistons flew out of the bonnet due the pressure.

Just adding power to your car wont make it fast. Every component of the vehicle has to match the other.

We think an F1 car is the ultimate machine to drive but, even these cars keep improving every year.

Regards...
Shan2nu

gemballa · 11th June 2007, 00:23

as u said there is a buttttttttttt if u took an accord for 300km round a race track it would not make it

mclaren1885 · 11th June 2007, 08:47

Now, one is allowed to put bolt on roll cages. Much easier than the TIG welded cages. Though, this is a 3 year old thread talks about tuners taking m800 engines to 130 and carbed esteems to 110 NA is surely funny

.

DCEite · 11th June 2007, 09:03

gemballla.
Please see the date of the thread before posting.

17th February 2004, 19:52	#1
GTO Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 71,818 Thanked: 322,691 Times View My Garage	Hey Shan2nu, Just heard that you are planning to get a roll cage installed in your Honda Vtec? Are you planning to start using the Vtec in competition? I got the impression that you will be using the roll cage only for road use, in which case you will find it immensely impractical (obtrusions, unnecesary weight, looks). GTO
	() Thanks

17th February 2004, 20:38	#2
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 127 Times View My Garage	No plans of using it in competitions yet. To compete, i'll have to change the suspenssion n stuff. The thing is that my mom is planning to upgrade to a D segment car "Hopefully the Accord". If that happens, the Vtec will be mine....all mine. And the rule of the family is, you can do anything with what's yours. I realise that fixing a roll cage will require a hell lot of changes inside the car. But if i'm gonna drive this thing like a race car, i'll have turn it into one. I'm still thinking about the roll cage. After looking at Storm's Skyline and how it helped get the occupants out of trouble, i felt the need for it. like Rehaan said, you can never be too careful......but i don't wanna leave any leaf unturned as fas as safety goes. Regards... Shan2nu
	() Thanks

17th February 2004, 20:57	#3
GTO Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 71,818 Thanked: 322,691 Times View My Garage	Hey Shan2nu, Why not upgrade the pair of alloys and put in some meaty rubber first? I strongly recommend GoodYear eagle F1's to almost every gashead looking for a change, since I have raced on this rubber for three years. They are really a cut above all the Michelins and Bridgestones (Not the Pole positions, mind you). 195/205's alongwith some slick 5 spokes alloys have done it for the Vtec! All the best with the Accord plans...There really is no car that can hold a candle to it, in the 15-20 lakh category. Now imagine having access to two Honda Vtec engines whenever you want... GTO
	() Thanks

17th February 2004, 21:39	#4
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 127 Times View My Garage	Yeah, it's time i got those tyres changed. But i don't wanna overdo it. I'm thinking more in terms of 205/50 R15. The Accord surely will lighten up my life. Afterall, it's the 2nd quickest car to 100 kmph, in India (after the SL500). I might even consider replacing the Vtec engine on my City with a normal 1.5. I spoke to a few Mechs in Blore and they all said the Vtec engine is too complex to be tuned. One guy even promised me 200bhp from a normal 1.5. I believe him coz he's already got a Carb Esteem engine producing around 100-110 bhp. Regards... Shan2nu
	() Thanks

17th February 2004, 23:25	#5
v12 Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 6,773 Thanked: 7,569 Times View My Garage	hey shantanu, if u plannin to fit a roll cage, i guess u r really serious abt it. Are you planning to turn it into a rally car??? Is it true that to install a roll-cage u have to remove the rear seats??? One important question is [No offence meant] Why do you wanna install a roll cage? You are not gonna take part in rallies. As M5 said a rollcage is impractical for road use. Also it'll be an expensive affair. Also, what if you have to carry some passengers? Theres no rear seat. Its really something to think about. Instead i suggest you to spend the money in some good engine mods. Also if you really wanna transform your car into a racecar, transform it completely. Chuck the a/c, power-windows, door pads. Add Recaro seats [they are lighter], good light alloys, wider tyres. And if ur moding ur engine to 200bhp, add rear discs too. Give it a good shade of red or yellow paint. A nice free flow exhaust.
	() Thanks

18th February 2004, 01:57	#6
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 127 Times View My Garage	Be it a highway or a race track, a roll cage is there to protect you. Ofcourse for normal driving it doesn't really matter. I just want to b on the safer side. I still haven't made up my mind about it. Installing a roll cage is a major modification, i'll have to think a lot on this before i do anything. Regards... Shan2nu
	() Thanks

18th February 2004, 05:28	#7
Rehaan Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 24,198 Thanked: 36,139 Times	Hi Shan2nu, I see your point. I have also thought about roll cages a lot (ie if i had an unlimited budget)... A rollcage on the track is a necessity. I think everyone will agree to that. A rollcage for a road-going car has its benefits and disadvantages. The benefits being the same, it probably will help save your life, (along with proper anatomically correct racing seats and a 4/5 point harness. The disadvantages for a road-going-rollcage seems to be a bit more. 1> added weight (but i would not wiegh this against safety) 2> as v12 and m5 said - you will probably have to lose the rear seats, and it will be impractical 3> it has no use as a "roll" cage unless u have racing seats (Rs. ~9k each) and 4point harness 4> and the largest safety concern in my mind is that when theres a roll cage in a car it is difficult to have full visibility around corners (as the A-pillar and rollcage block more of your view), this is ok on the track as you might know the course, but more importantly there are no cows standing on the road around the corner or idiots cutting corners on the highways or children running across the road. well thats what i have to say, let me know what u think. oh.and also - i would agree that you should upgrade your tires (u might want to consider keeping the old alloys if looks are not entirely important to you and u have a few bad roads u travel on in which case the 14" will be better than 15") I'd say the tires are the most important part of the car (except in drift racing ;-] Also, i know people who could tune a m800 to put out 130bhp.......but it would only work for 6 weeks.....before the engine self destructs. There is a right balance between durability and performance and it looks like 200bhp from a 1.5city engine is not striking that balance... or anywhere near it. cya later Rehaan.
	() Thanks

26th February 2004, 17:51	#8
adityapd BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Mumbai, Philadelphia Posts: 288 Thanked: 9 Times View My Garage	Hi Shan2nu do u have any idea as to how can these mechs tune normal 800 and 1300 cc engines to deliver almost double the bhp ? Does it have any adverse effect on the life of the engine ? i am really amazed !!! aditya
	() Thanks

26th February 2004, 18:16	#9
GTO Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 71,818 Thanked: 322,691 Times View My Garage	Aditya, There really is no hard and fast rule that extracting more power out of an engine will have an adverse effect on the life of it...but what really depends is HOW you extract the power. For e.g. if an intercooler + turbo-charger or a super-charger is added to a stock engine (provided the engine components are tough enough to withstand the extra pressures created by the turbo) by an expert using high quality in both parts and execution, the engine life alongwith power and fuel-average will actually increase. Buttttttttttttttt most street-side performance shops actually increase the stress and wear+tear of the engine, in their aim to make it pump out more bhp. Incompatible manifolds and exhaust systems, inappropriately oversized pistons etc. have a huge detrimental effect on your powerplant. If the add-on products have been well-engineered and designed for that particular application (e.g. K&N cold air intakes for the Honda Accord) then the performance is for you to enjoy. Another factor is the tuned RPM. As a general thumb-rule the more the RPM, the greater the wear and tear of the engine. While an street going version of a Honda Accord 3000cc powerplant will pump out 240 bhp, a Formula One 3000cc powerplant will churn out 900 bhp!! While the Accord would produce its 240 horses at 5000-7000 rpm, the F1 engine does so at almost 19,000 rpm!! While the Accord engine will last you 500,000 kms....the entire f1 engine will have to be rebuilt after a single race (300 kms). Among other things, the higher RPM is one of the strongest contributing factors to the power output of the formula one engine. Street tuners are known to make their powerplants run at far higher rpms in an effort to source more power...but at the cost of engine life. If you ask me, a carbed esteem with 110 horses or a City engine with 200 horses will be a load of fun...but a very short-lived fun factor at that. Dont waste your money on doubling the power output (unless you have wads of it or dont intend to use the car save for a single day a week):laugh: GTO
	() Thanks

26th February 2004, 19:24	#10
Shan2nu Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hubli - Karnata Posts: 5,533 Thanked: 127 Times View My Garage	Exactly, once tuned for excess power, you will no longer be able to use your car on a daily basis. 200bhp from a Vtec might sound amazing but, the question is, whether the car is designed to take such power. I've seen 6,000bhp dragsters on TV, where the whole chassis bent when he accelerated. in another case the pistons flew out of the bonnet due the pressure. Just adding power to your car wont make it fast. Every component of the vehicle has to match the other. We think an F1 car is the ultimate machine to drive but, even these cars keep improving every year. Regards... Shan2nu
	() Thanks

11th June 2007, 00:23	#11
gemballa BHPian Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: mumbai Posts: 368 Thanked: 319 Times	as u said there is a buttttttttttt if u took an accord for 300km round a race track it would not make it
	(1) Thanks

11th June 2007, 08:47	#12
mclaren1885 BANNED Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bangalore (the city of modded cars) !! Posts: 4,818 Thanked: 46 Times View My Garage Infractions: 0/1 (10)	Now, one is allowed to put bolt on roll cages. Much easier than the TIG welded cages. Though, this is a 3 year old thread talks about tuners taking m800 engines to 130 and carbed esteems to 110 NA is surely funny .
	() Thanks

11th June 2007, 09:03	#13
DCEite Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: NCR Posts: 3,591 Thanked: 3,498 Times	gemballla. Please see the date of the thread before posting. Last edited by DCEite : 11th June 2007 at 09:06.
	() Thanks