[evil_grin]

Originally Posted by dieselhead01

I wish I could share it on the thread, but unfortunately that feature isn’t available. Please pm me, I’ll forward you the videos of both the cars.

You can upload to YouTube and share a link here.

[dieselhead01]

Hey. This is a thread I had wanted to post at least at one point. Finally after all the mods, and the work, I just wanted to get done with the dyno run, to actually see how much the car is making in real life, as such things matter a great deal to a person like myself. Harmonixx Tuning, Bangalore, had conducted a dyno event called ‘Dyno Wars’ wherein we could bring our cars and get it tested on their specialised DynoJet dyno. I didn’t think twice, rather went straight ahead, registered for the event.

All credits to the Engineering Exponent and boys, who stayed up with me the whole night, I mean nights, all the way up till the next day morning, giving up sleep, and just putting in all the work. Huge thanks to Rakshit from Engineering Exponent, a good friend who did continuous data logging and helped in calibrating a final map, that was just mind-blowing. And all thanks to Wolf Moto Performance for curating one of the best remaps on this engine platform.

The day of Dyno’ing the car came, and it did surely keep up my expectations, made me happier infact on how much the increment from stock was, a major jump, I’d say, both in numbers and performance. After the 3 dyno runs at Harmonixx, the dyno figures of the car were:

205.81hp/ 501.82nm.

These figures, were insane for just a simple turbo CR140 2.0 TDI engine, and it shocked us with the torque output, but yes, the car did feel seriously FAST. All the 500nm of torque did feel and the urgency is unexplainable.

Considering the stock 141hp/ 320nm output, this was a huge jump.

Again goes on to show the dominance of Wolf Moto Performance in the field of 2.0 TDI engines.

[d3mon]

Originally Posted by dieselhead01

These figures, were insane for just a simple turbo CR140 2.0 TDI engine, and it shocked us with the torque output, but yes, the car did feel seriously FAST. All the 500nm of torque did feel and the urgency is unexplainable.

Considering the stock 141hp/ 320nm output, this was a huge jump.

I'm sure you are enjoying the increase in power output. However, I'm sorry to say that the actual figures are misleading.

This is because Harmonixx are using SAE correction factor (Which was developed and is applicable ONLY for Naturally aspirated cars) on turbocharged cars (which lose far lesser performance at high altitudes & low atmospheric pressures).

A simple way to think about this is the amount of air entering the engine increases as the MAP (Manifold absolute pressure) at the intake increases. In NA engines, this is almost the same as atmospheric pressure. Hence, when the atmospheric pressure falls from 14.7psi to 13.2PSI (as measured in your run), you get a correction factor of 13.6% from this.

However, in turbocharged cars (especially diesels with high boost figures), the MAP is much higher - peak figures are roughly 35-40PSI. Take out the same 1.5PSI drop in Bangalore from 40PSI and you lose just 3.7% performance, and this is assuming that the turbo isn't spooling harder to equalize MAP pressure, which is something many turbos do!

Bottomline - it's ridiculous to apply the SAE correction numbers to a highly boosted turbo diesel.

Your dyno runs are SAE corrected by 1.15x (not including the wheel-engine correction factor).
If you ran the stock car on the same dyno, you'd probably have read 150-160BHP as the output. And no, this isn't just VW underquoting the factory numbers, most turbo cars from all manufacturers report unreasonably high numbers at the harmonixx dyno even in the stock tune because of this issue.

I've tried informing them but their response was highly dismissive & condescending. Guess they are happy to spread misinformation as long as their customers are also happy seeing the inflated numbers.

[dieselhead01]

Originally Posted by d3mon

I've tried informing them but their response was highly dismissive & condescending. Guess they are happy to spread misinformation as long as their customers are also happy seeing the inflated numbers.

Thank you for mentioning this. I’m not sure of their dyno and what they put out, I just went there for the tests and came back with these results. When I saw a stock Octavia 2.0 TSI (190hp) MK4 doing about 205hp and 360nm, I found it questionable, but then a lot of cars had been dyno’d that day, and also a lot have been dyno’d in the past, so I’m not sure, and think they’re doing a good job at it too.

But wait, a friend running the same setup on a Jetta from the same tuners and garage, managed to get the same figures in FRK dyno, Bangalore, so whatever may be the figures, it’s 206hp/502nm, or at least very close to it.

And it’s not surprising that it puts out these numbers, as it does the quarter mile in just 14.8 seconds with full weight, even lesser with some proper weight reduction. Stock RS230 imho does a flat 15 or something, so these numbers are very believable to me. But whatever it is, thanks for bringing this into the light.

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by dieselhead01

But wait, a friend running the same setup on a Jetta from the same tuners and garage, managed to get the same figures in FRK dyno, Bangalore, so whatever may be the figures, it’s 206hp/502nm, or at least very close to it.

This is because everyone used SAE J1349 blindly. The truth is that dynos in more advanced markets are used as tuning tools, not to ascertain peak power - they are more interested in times and on-track performance.

Again, in more advanced markets, this has been discussed and pointed out. A good example, as well as the correct formula, is here - https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...incorrect.html

[dieselhead01]

Originally Posted by v1p3r

This is because everyone used SAE J1349 blindly. The truth is that dynos in more advanced markets are used as tuning tools, not to ascertain peak power - they are more interested in times and on-track performance.

Again, in more advanced markets, this has been discussed and pointed out. A good example, as well as the correct formula, is here - https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...incorrect.html

Well, maybe the SAE is overused these days. But honestly the performance post remap speaks for itself on the road for me, and the ones who have experienced it. The on road real world performance and timings have convinced me that the car is doing these figures, I mean does the job for me personally.

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by d3mon

Bottomline - it's ridiculous to apply the SAE correction numbers to a highly boosted turbo diesel.

Your dyno runs are SAE corrected by 1.15x (not including the wheel-engine correction factor).
If you ran the stock car on the same dyno, you'd probably have read 150-160BHP as the output. And no, this isn't just VW underquoting the factory numbers, most turbo cars from all manufacturers report unreasonably high numbers at the harmonixx dyno even in the stock tune because of this issue.

I've tried informing them but their response was highly dismissive & condescending. Guess they are happy to spread misinformation as long as their customers are also happy seeing the inflated numbers.

Being over optimistic with numbers, is the bread and butter of 'come and check your numbers" aftermarket dyno industry. There are many "Enthusiasts" who still have not realized that the flatness of the T plot is far more important than the peak T and peak HP numbers.

Tuners can customize their maps to two categories of customers :

(i) I want social media bragging rights, highest numbers possible, I want to flood videos of my car killing it's clutch doing 0-100 from a driver helmet cam, and post pics of my car wearing 235/40/18 tyres and having the title "first XXX car in India with YYY/ZZZ numbers", on instagram and tiktok (if there is a "flamethrower from exhaust" map, they will jump straight in, to hell with longevity/reliability of powertrain)

(ii) I just want better driveability and lesser gear changes, don't care for dyno numbers or 0-100 numbers.

Afterall, customer is king. Tuners have different 'tunes' for category (i) and category (ii).

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by dieselhead01

Well, maybe the SAE is overused these days. But honestly the performance post remap speaks for itself on the road for me, and the ones who have experienced it. The on road real world performance and timings have convinced me that the car is doing these figures, I mean does the job for me personally.

Yes, as long as you're happy, that's what matters. The times you're doing - 14.8 402m and 6.9 s 0-100 - should put you in the 175-225 hp range, based on the Octavia's weight and various other factors. Most cars with a similar speed and weight are in that range. Beyond that, an number will require lambda vs IDC with a known BSFC. It's what we did on engine dynos for multiple manufacturers, including VAG's 2.0 common rail systems.

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by d3mon

This is because Harmonixx are using SAE correction factor (Which was developed and is applicable ONLY for Naturally aspirated cars) on turbocharged cars (which lose far lesser performance at high altitudes & low atmospheric pressures).

Harmonixx used to share stock vs tuned runs for most of the cars. The dyno gives consistent results and what matters is the delta.

I've tried informing them but their response was highly dismissive & condescending. Guess they are happy to spread misinformation as long as their customers are also happy seeing the inflated numbers.

There was also a detailed post few days back on their Instagram page. They are going to post both SAE corrected and uncorrected figures from now .



https://www.instagram.com/p/CqL3--HP...d=MDJmNzVkMjY=

I also like the way how these guys are changing the tuning scene in India. Lot of technical details, dyno comparisons and what not. Do have a look at the recent Horsepower wars event organised by Harmonixx, I see both corrected and uncorrected numbers .

[v1p3r]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

what matters is the delta.

Correct.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

I also like the way how these guys are changing the tuning scene in India. Lot of technical details, dyno comparisons and what not.

This is true. They are very comprehensive with dyno output figures, which is a trend that I wish more people would follow.

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

I see both corrected and uncorrected numbers .

Interestingly, there are no uncorrected numbers for the NA engines.