2 Engines

aveek · 27th July 2005, 21:40

OK, so Ford did it with the comcept GT90 - they had 2 engines (do correct me if I'm wrong) one running each rear wheel.

Now, if you wanna have a really quick balanced supercar, qwhy not have 2 engines, one powering the front 2 wheels, like a front engined car, and one powering the rear 2 wheels, like a rear engined car?? That way, theres equal weight istributiong at the front and back, and the driver sits with this awesome noise all around him in the center...

So why the hell hasnt anyone made this before?? I mean, it seems the only same thing to do na?? Assuming that you're making an all out racing car, you dont need a boot, so just fit another negine there as well, get 2 times the power an noise!! (and fuel consumption... but who cares??!!)

Rudra Sen · 27th July 2005, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by aveek

So why the hell hasnt anyone made this before??

Mercedes Benz has done this before. I don't remember the year. Must be couple of years ago. Stratos, open your archive and throw some light

Mpower · 27th July 2005, 21:52

You need two transmissions....which is additional weight and complexity. Better to add cylinders or use forced induction.

VW had built a working proto of a twin engine Golf in the 80s.

aveek · 27th July 2005, 21:55

How much more complex can things get after NASCAR, F-1, INDY, and F-NIPPON an suc?? as far as I can see, it shouldnt be much of a broblem to do this, and i'm sure that people would buy it.

@MPower: regarding dual transmissoins, the Innova has an electric throttle, so cant we just adapt this technology to transmission systems as well, which should get rid of the complexity...

Just my 2c...

Rudra Sen · 27th July 2005, 22:08

aveek, here's the link http://www.mbspy.com/w168twin.htm

v1p3r · 27th July 2005, 22:31

How does an electric throttle concept help? That's basically a pressure plate connected to a potentiometer. For twin engines, you still need the bulk of twin transmission mechanisms, even if you electronize the selection mechanism.

To answer your question about someone doing it...coming soon to a dragstrip near you!!!

turbo_lover · 27th July 2005, 22:33

50:50 weight distribution is the ideal balance of the car ...
even the front engine mazda RX 8 has it ...mazda claims that even with the driver in the car the weight distribution is 50:50 front /rear ..

ajmat · 28th July 2005, 08:52

VW tried this out in the mid 80's with a VW Jetta and Scrirocco. It was actually quite successful as a concept as you could tweak chassis blance through power distribution. Unfortunaltly, it ain't a viable commercial proposition. Maybe Psycho could look at this as his next project

Psycho · 28th July 2005, 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmat

Unfortunaltly, it ain't a viable commercial proposition. Maybe Psycho could look at this as his next project

How very truly said as it is to get the best out of one engine is hard enough and now ppl are talking about two engines... I would rather spend my time perfecting one engines power delivery than trying to tweak 2 and continously balancing the power distribution of 2...

A lotta people have built multi-engined cars but getting all the engines to behave similarly is so much more of a nightmare guess it is best left for the salt lake afficianados...

Quote:

Originally Posted by aveek

get 2 times the power an noise

I dont think that statement is true on the power front and remember noise is not equal to power... please remeber engine A with X bhp + engine B with Y bhp when mated on to a common chassis do not produce X+Y bhp... There are losses and many more issues to get sorted out...

Quote:

Originally Posted by aveek

@MPower: regarding dual transmissoins, the Innova has an electric throttle, so cant we just adapt this technology to transmission systems as well, which should get rid of the complexity...

The great throttle idea... how would you measure the torque difference, the airflow difference also remember the rear wheels get more traction than the front how would you actively take care of that?

iceman91 · 28th July 2005, 11:34

interesting topic aveek and as v1p3r said....something is brewing in town!!!
the mani problem out of these "twin" engine cars is getting the right amount of power and the exact gearing for it....even if one set spins a little bit more than you are in BIG trouble....
lot of wrinkles to be ironed out!!!

ajmat · 28th July 2005, 11:42

this is not an official vw car but somone tried it

www.durocco.com

CaliforniaKnight · 28th July 2005, 11:45

Is this something like the Special Edition A class Mercedes Benz made for Mika Hakkinen some time back..Having one engine in the boot and the other in the Engine compartment. But there were two start buttons for that car...

shravan316 · 28th July 2005, 14:53

Well, another problem i see( correct me if i'm wrong) is the weight of carrying 2 engines, sure it will give a good weight distribution, but, it will also increase the weight right? So wouldnt the power to weight ratio go down??

Revvmaster · 28th July 2005, 15:02

Here's a list of Bi-Motor(twin-engined) cars since the ages.

1. Alfa Romeo Bimotore
Year: 1932
Engine: 2 x 3165cc
Power: 540 bhp
Nos. produced: 3 confirmed, rest unknown

2. Twini Mini Cooper
Year: 1963
Engine: 1088cc + 1212cc
Power: 178 bhp
Nos. produced: Not known

3. Citroen 2CV Sahara
Year: Not known
Engine: 2 x 425cc
Power: 26 bhp
Nos. Produced: 694

4. Mini Moke
Year: Not known
Engine: 2 x 848cc
Power: 74 bhp
Nos. Produced: 1 known, rest unconfirmed

5. Saab 93 'Monster'
Year: 1958
Engine: 2 x 748cc
Power: 136bhp
Nos. Produced: 1 known, rest unconfirmed

6. VW Scirocco Bimotor
Year: Post 1983
Engine: 2 x 1791cc
Power: 360bhp
Nos. produced: 2

7. Tiger Z 100
Year: Post 1999
Engine: 2 x 900cc
Power: 300 bhp
Nos. Produced: Still under production; made to order

8. Mercedes Benz A190 Twin
Year: 1999
Engine: 2 x 1898cc
Power: 250 bhp
Nos. Produced: 2

[b]9. Railton Mobil Special
Year: 1930s
Engine: 2 x 24000cc
Power: 2800 bhp
Nos. Produced: 1

Also add Toyota Prius and other twin-engined (Petrol+electric motors) to the list if you please.

Revv

aveek · 28th July 2005, 20:34

@Rudra: Thanks sir, the linky was pretty neat.

@Psycho: The torque and air-flow and everything is pretty much monitored by a 32-bit comp. chip anyway, na? I'm sure that people wqouldnt find it too hard to map an ECU that controls all this as well.

@V1p3r: I kow. I think that I might be working on it...!!!

@Shravan: lets say an engine wighs 400kg and blts out 500BHP. So then 2 engines = 800KG vs. 1000BHP. Id say thats fast enough... wouldnt you...?? As far as I can see, the Power to Weight ration can only go own, uless the engines are de-tuned...

@iceman: so why cant we have the ECU figure that one out...?? As it is, the Enzo, Carrara GT, and every other 'modern supercar' have these chips in em... so, why not have a nice computer RAM type chip instead, and sort all these problems out...??

@Revv: I meant 2 petrol engines both running simultaniuosly, not 2 engines, with alternate power generation. As I'm not too sure if the Mentioned cars have the above configuration, thje Prius and other hybrid cars are definitely out, as they run altetrnate engines, right...??

27th July 2005, 21:40	#1
aveek BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 294 Thanked: 2 Times	2 Engines OK, so Ford did it with the comcept GT90 - they had 2 engines (do correct me if I'm wrong) one running each rear wheel. Now, if you wanna have a really quick balanced supercar, qwhy not have 2 engines, one powering the front 2 wheels, like a front engined car, and one powering the rear 2 wheels, like a rear engined car?? That way, theres equal weight istributiong at the front and back, and the driver sits with this awesome noise all around him in the center... So why the hell hasnt anyone made this before?? I mean, it seems the only same thing to do na?? Assuming that you're making an all out racing car, you dont need a boot, so just fit another negine there as well, get 2 times the power an noise!! (and fuel consumption... but who cares??!!)
	() Thanks

27th July 2005, 21:52	#3
Mpower Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 10,409 Thanked: 1,730 Times View My Garage	You need two transmissions....which is additional weight and complexity. Better to add cylinders or use forced induction. VW had built a working proto of a twin engine Golf in the 80s.
	() Thanks

27th July 2005, 21:55	#4
aveek BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 294 Thanked: 2 Times	How much more complex can things get after NASCAR, F-1, INDY, and F-NIPPON an suc?? as far as I can see, it shouldnt be much of a broblem to do this, and i'm sure that people would buy it. @MPower: regarding dual transmissoins, the Innova has an electric throttle, so cant we just adapt this technology to transmission systems as well, which should get rid of the complexity... Just my 2c...
	() Thanks

27th July 2005, 22:08	#5
Rudra Sen Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 11,590 Thanked: 6,532 Times View My Garage	aveek, here's the link http://www.mbspy.com/w168twin.htm
	() Thanks

27th July 2005, 22:31	#6
v1p3r Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: BLR / DXB / LON Posts: 5,334 Thanked: 6,896 Times View My Garage	How does an electric throttle concept help? That's basically a pressure plate connected to a potentiometer. For twin engines, you still need the bulk of twin transmission mechanisms, even if you electronize the selection mechanism. To answer your question about someone doing it...coming soon to a dragstrip near you!!!
	() Thanks

27th July 2005, 22:33	#7
turbo_lover Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 1,377 Thanked: 9 Times	50:50 weight distribution is the ideal balance of the car ... even the front engine mazda RX 8 has it ...mazda claims that even with the driver in the car the weight distribution is 50:50 front /rear ..
	() Thanks

28th July 2005, 08:52	#8
ajmat Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 14,860 Thanked: 27,954 Times View My Garage	VW tried this out in the mid 80's with a VW Jetta and Scrirocco. It was actually quite successful as a concept as you could tweak chassis blance through power distribution. Unfortunaltly, it ain't a viable commercial proposition. Maybe Psycho could look at this as his next project
	() Thanks

28th July 2005, 11:34	#10
iceman91 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: melbourne/banga Posts: 1,961 Thanked: 34 Times View My Garage	interesting topic aveek and as v1p3r said....something is brewing in town!!! the mani problem out of these "twin" engine cars is getting the right amount of power and the exact gearing for it....even if one set spins a little bit more than you are in BIG trouble.... lot of wrinkles to be ironed out!!!
	() Thanks

28th July 2005, 11:42	#11
ajmat Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 14,860 Thanked: 27,954 Times View My Garage	this is not an official vw car but somone tried it www.durocco.com
	() Thanks

28th July 2005, 11:45	#12
CaliforniaKnight BHPian Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: IND + DXB Posts: 980 Thanked: 141 Times View My Garage	Is this something like the Special Edition A class Mercedes Benz made for Mika Hakkinen some time back..Having one engine in the boot and the other in the Engine compartment. But there were two start buttons for that car...
	() Thanks

28th July 2005, 14:53	#13
shravan316 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,029 Thanked: 9 Times	Well, another problem i see( correct me if i'm wrong) is the weight of carrying 2 engines, sure it will give a good weight distribution, but, it will also increase the weight right? So wouldnt the power to weight ratio go down??
	() Thanks

28th July 2005, 15:02	#14
Revvmaster Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 1,190 Thanked: 95 Times	Here's a list of Bi-Motor(twin-engined) cars since the ages. 1. Alfa Romeo Bimotore Year: 1932 Engine: 2 x 3165cc Power: 540 bhp Nos. produced: 3 confirmed, rest unknown 2. Twini Mini Cooper Year: 1963 Engine: 1088cc + 1212cc Power: 178 bhp Nos. produced: Not known 3. Citroen 2CV Sahara Year: Not known Engine: 2 x 425cc Power: 26 bhp Nos. Produced: 694 4. Mini Moke Year: Not known Engine: 2 x 848cc Power: 74 bhp Nos. Produced: 1 known, rest unconfirmed 5. Saab 93 'Monster' Year: 1958 Engine: 2 x 748cc Power: 136bhp Nos. Produced: 1 known, rest unconfirmed 6. VW Scirocco Bimotor Year: Post 1983 Engine: 2 x 1791cc Power: 360bhp Nos. produced: 2 7. Tiger Z 100 Year: Post 1999 Engine: 2 x 900cc Power: 300 bhp Nos. Produced: Still under production; made to order 8. Mercedes Benz A190 Twin Year: 1999 Engine: 2 x 1898cc Power: 250 bhp Nos. Produced: 2 [b]9. Railton Mobil Special Year: 1930s Engine: 2 x 24000cc Power: 2800 bhp Nos. Produced: 1 Also add Toyota Prius and other twin-engined (Petrol+electric motors) to the list if you please. Revv
	() Thanks

28th July 2005, 20:34	#15
aveek BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 294 Thanked: 2 Times	@Rudra: Thanks sir, the linky was pretty neat. @Psycho: The torque and air-flow and everything is pretty much monitored by a 32-bit comp. chip anyway, na? I'm sure that people wqouldnt find it too hard to map an ECU that controls all this as well. @V1p3r: I kow. I think that I might be working on it...!!! @Shravan: lets say an engine wighs 400kg and blts out 500BHP. So then 2 engines = 800KG vs. 1000BHP. Id say thats fast enough... wouldnt you...?? As far as I can see, the Power to Weight ration can only go own, uless the engines are de-tuned... @iceman: so why cant we have the ECU figure that one out...?? As it is, the Enzo, Carrara GT, and every other 'modern supercar' have these chips in em... so, why not have a nice computer RAM type chip instead, and sort all these problems out...?? @Revv: I meant 2 petrol engines both running simultaniuosly, not 2 engines, with alternate power generation. As I'm not too sure if the Mentioned cars have the above configuration, thje Prius and other hybrid cars are definitely out, as they run altetrnate engines, right...??
	() Thanks