[Rash]

Originally Posted by Rahulkool

The calculation is wrong as the torque will be also more in the 45bhp motor and just assuming 11,000 is not right as its not a sports bike motor to develop power at such a high RPM range. I am not able to find torque figure for these two anywhere, i am amazed that why KTM site doesnot have these figures

As per this website power and torque for EXC-F 350 is 47hp and 37.5Nm(27.65ft-lb)

I was just trying to show that since a motor A makes more Peak power than motor B does not necessarily mean that motor A will produce higher torque than motor B in the entire rpm range.

My calculations were not wrong the assumptions were approximate !

As to the rpm's. General rule of thumb for safe rpm's is usually mean piston speed of 20 m/s and both the motors are very over square at 88x57.5 which brings the 20m/s rpm to around 10000

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Talking about the duke. Its a great street bike but take it to the hills and try to do one of the many slopes of Clouds End road or the Landour road and it starts gasping and requires severe clutch slipping.

Hi,
The short gearing doesn't compensate?

Regards
Sutripta

[navpreet318]

nope. there is no shortcut to torque. no amount of short gearing will help.

[Rahulkool]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

nope. there is no shortcut to torque. no amount of short gearing will help.

I find it strange that you had to clutch slip, i have never felt the need for that.

[Rash]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

nope. there is no shortcut to torque. no amount of short gearing will help.

Hmm. Interesting notion.

But gearing is a torque multiplier and ideally should help providing more torque at the wheel, off course at the cost of linear speed.

[navpreet318]

yes ofcourse we have seen the effect of gearing in low ratio gearboxes in SUVs and Jeeps. No doubt its one of the most useful tools out there but you need the whole system to work in conjunction. It needs a torquey engine to support it. A small engine making 25bhp is simply not enough because in the race to win the HP honours, its lost the torque. Yes it will still perform awesome on the street. It really is a pocket rocket. But places we go, it doesn't cut it. Maybe we're too demanding.

[ebonho]

Navpreet what's your weight bro?

I have owned three 500s for 10+ years (including the LB which you have), and the baby Duke pulls up a slope as well as any of them.

And without having to drop down too low. And never slipping the clutch.

Not yet taken her to the mountains, but we do have some pretty steep slopes out here around Pune, and the Duke does them comfortably.

[navpreet318]

Hahaha. Interesting question. Well come on over to dehradun for a holiday and we'll go for a spin. Lets just say the sidestand on the KTM becomes nonoperational when I sit on one. But I don't ride a KTM. Its my friend who has problems with it. Infact that friend has owned a lot more bikes than any of us. around 20 Std 500's, 12 LB 500's and right now about 10 CL 500's and counting. He has a touring company for foreign nationals.
He is the one who has the problems.

[ebonho]

So what's his weight then?

I like torquey bikes myself and the Duke has to date not been found wanting on rides with Bullets along as well.

In fact most Bullet guys are surprised at how nicely this small bike pulls - that too in 6th and 5th and very rarely needing to drop below.

And these are all riders with over 20 years of riding under their belts.

You just ride the two bikes differently. Because they are very different bikes.

[navpreet318]

You are right on that. But when a bike needs to start up on a slope thats when the problem comes. Tight U turn. Can't carry speed. bike bogs down to crawl. Shift to first. still need to clutch it in to pull it up the slope. If you stop, you're done for. Where as on the bullets- same U-turn. Bike slows down to stop. shift to first. power out using the torque.
My friend's weight is not much. He probably is in the feather weight category. But this bike has serious issues.

Yes it is a good road bike and if you carry speed then you can go up any slop etc. etc. But a bike tuned for torque will be way different from a bike tuned for sheer horsepower. which this KTM is. Each bike has its purpose. So has this.

[ebonho]

Agree completely and see what you mean now. This is exactly what I meant by saying that each bike needs to be ridden differently. On the Bullet you chug along. The Duke is more frantic. And you tend to automatically sense its power band and adjust accordingly for the path ahead.

I agree that I would not like to be caught with a stalled engine with the Duke on any gradient greater than 40 degrees. Even less if loaded with luggage. But then that's true for all other high revving bikes out there, and short of the Ninja 250 and the CBR 250, the Duke has the best torque figures. While a lot of the Bullet's humongous torque (on paper) is lost to the transmission (clutch mainly) and its inertia of mass.

Then again, to be fair, I would also not like to be caught on a gradient with a stalled motor on fully loaded Bullet (with rider and luggage that is upwards of a third of a ton) with front drums and no electric start. Just to keep the comparison in perspective.

Either way, a skilled rider will manage equally well on both. Where the Bullet seriously scores over the Duke is its toughness (metal, wire wheels, etc.) and its load carrying capacity. Its also got a way better headlight come to think about it. I would prefer taking my Bullet over my Duke if I'm going to be doing predominantly rough terrain riding. It can and does take a lot more punishment.

I can also from experience tell you that while on paper the Duke has better ground clearance (165 vs 135 mm), in reality the Bullet goes over rocks and sharp drop-offs much better than the Duke in terms of the approach angle of the engine sump.

Anything else and the Duke scores over the Bullet. Be it the amazing handling. Be it suspension. Be it rubber. Be it brakes. Be it acceleration. Be it top speed. Be it mileage. So for anything except really rough riding, I would take my Duke over my Bullet.

[doctorque]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Agree completely and see what you mean now. This is exactly what I meant by saying that each bike needs to be ridden differently. On the Bullet you chug along. The Duke is more frantic. And you tend to automatically sense its power band and adjust accordingly for the path ahead.

I agree that I would not like to be caught with a stalled engine with the Duke on any gradient greater than 40 degrees. Even less if loaded with luggage. But then that's true for all other high revving bikes out there, and short of the Ninja 250 and the CBR 250, the Duke has the best torque figures. While a lot of the Bullet's humongous torque (on paper) is lost to the transmission (clutch mainly) and its inertia of mass.

Then again, to be fair, I would also not like to be caught on a gradient with a stalled motor on fully loaded Bullet (with rider and luggage that is upwards of a third of a ton) with front drums and no electric start. Just to keep the comparison in perspective.

Either way, a skilled rider will manage equally well on both. Where the Bullet seriously scores over the Duke is its toughness (metal, wire wheels, etc.) and its load carrying capacity. Its also got a way better headlight come to think about it. I would prefer taking my Bullet over my Duke if I'm going to be doing predominantly rough terrain riding. It can and does take a lot more punishment.

I can also from experience tell you that while on paper the Duke has better ground clearance (165 vs 135 mm), in reality the Bullet goes over rocks and sharp drop-offs much better than the Duke in terms of the approach angle of the engine sump.

Anything else and the Duke scores over the Bullet. Be it the amazing handling. Be it suspension. Be it rubber. Be it brakes. Be it acceleration. Be it top speed. Be it mileage. So for anything except really rough riding, I would take my Duke over my Bullet.

I am with you on this one. Bullet is an ideal machine for rough terrain but that does not mean that the other Indian made motor bikes are not capable of tackling rough terrain at all. Infact, lower weight just about helps the smaller bikes when they lose out to the bullet on power. Also, even if we just talk about difficult terrain, the bullet would also need a skilled rider to make it through.

Ridden the duke for a bit, only then understood why shubrata @ overdrive wrote that the duke will take you back to the RX100 and RD350 days.

Cant wait for the 3 5 0.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by doctorque

Ridden the duke for a bit, only then understood why shubrata @ overdrive wrote that the duke will take you back to the RX100 and RD350 days.

Most guys in their late 30s - early 40s who had the good fortune of riding brand new RD 350s will tell you that comparison is over the top. The RX100 is more in the same initial "feel" ballpark, to be realy objective.