[amit_purohit20]

@ Vroom: Can you again jot down the exact conditions in which you are going to use your bike?

If you are going to use it in city only any other bike will do but if you want:
1) Fun to ride bike - Read good pickup, good handling, flickability, cornering ability,bent forward position for better control.
2) Safe bike - Read ABS, Sharp Disc brakes, Good tyres, provision to upgrade the tyres for fatter soft compound tyres (Space between swing arm and tyre or at least the tyre is 120-130mm wide).
3) Long touring bike: Read Relaxed engine (higher cc but less power output), Long stroke engines or at least torquey engines, Refinement, Comfortable seating position,Comfortable Handle bar position, Wide and long seats for Rider and pillion, Ability to fit Luggage, Less plastics, High reliability, Uncramped seating position for rider and pillion.
4) Commuter bike: Nearly same as long touring bike but with more fuel efficiency and light weight.

....you need to consider the bikes behaviour for above factors!

Some other points (might vary for person to person):
1) If you drive less and only within the city you might not require long touring capabilities ie. you can go for a bent forward position bike and also a bike with a fist sized pillion seat! You would be more interested in low end torque and bikes low and mid-end behaviour. Top end behaviour will be hardly of any use as you will seldom reach those levels in city rides.Engine refinement can be compromised because of the city high noise decibel levels! Looks can be given prime importance for this category.
2) If you drive more and especially more on highways for long endless hours - take a big uncramped bike with excellent refinement of engine and cruising abilities. Also ABS would be worth every penny.
3) If you go all India touring and often landup transporting your bike by train then prefer a bike with minimum plastics.
4) If you go off-road then do check the ground clearance of the bike and fairings are a stict no-no.
5) If you ride with a pillion often then it can severly impact your choices available in the market. Most of the new bikes are not intended to be driven pillion! You can judge this with the diminishing size of the pillion seat in modern bikes in our market.
6) If you want a track tool- RTR180 and R15 nothing better than these bikes. (Below or near 1 lakh Rs)

[vroom77]

Amit, sure. Its a good exercise now as I clearly understand there is no perfect bike.

I have to ride not more than 2 kms a day. My office is just less than a km away from where I stay. So its walkable and the need for a bike is more from the point of view of "fun to ride" and then practicality (my wife will accompany sometimes so it should be a bit comfortable for her to alight)

So this straight away translates to low and mid end torque and performance.

I am not too worried about mileage and the inclination is towards a good ride experience.

I was a bit particular about looks. Hence not FZ and Fazer and then upgrade to R15 etc etc. With R15 all the tech and FI etc have been definitely add-ons I liked.

I don't want to be a frequent garage visitor. And looks like pulsars are not very well designed but yes bang for the buck (Referring to NS). Some of the ownership threads highlights unresolved issues.

I am not sure whether its relevant, but I will have periods of inactivity may be a month or so and the bike should weather well without needing to bring the mechanic to get it started.

I feel that 150cc and 14bhp is all that I can have and may be a 6th gear for those rare long trips and a ergonomic seating position that doesn't strain the back. I have had back pain for almost two years which is subsided for sometime now.

With tyres, I would love to run with good tires - after a 9 year old life with bullet narrow tires are a nightmare.

I hope this brings in some clarity on the needs once again. Few questions on the terms we use here.

1. What exactly do you mean by refinement ? I understand this as no strain on the engine throughout the revs that translates to vibrations to the rider.

2. Handling - Ability to do tough maneuvers under control.
3. Transmission - Ability to slot the gears well accurately all the time ? Notchy vs butter smooth. Do both these go well together ? Accuracy and Butter smooth gear shift ?
4. Tyres - Should I be too worried about them ? I understand wider is better, softer compound better grip & yes the pattern. On tarmac and sand (our service roads) what is the minimum requirement ?

I hope I have covered everything. If the touring aspect ( note <300km) which is very rare is mixing up categories and not helping to arrive a pick may be its time to take that off from the requirement. I will be riding with the likes of CBR 250 and other bullets when we go on long rides.

[SoumenD]

Originally Posted by vroom77

I feel that 150cc and 14bhp is all that I can have and may be a 6th gear for those rare long trips and a ergonomic seating position that doesn't strain the back. I have had back pain for almost two years which is subsided for sometime now.

You are talking GS150R here

Originally Posted by vroom77

...Few questions on the terms we use here.

4. Tyres - Should I be too worried about them ? I understand wider is better, softer compound better grip & yes the pattern. On tarmac and sand (our service roads) what is the minimum requirement ?

And thats where you are mistaken. R15(Gen 1) was known to have one of the thinnest tyres but at the same time the most reliable in terms of road grip(thanks to the soft compound).
Secondly there's nothing defined as minimum requirement. But after being on two wheels for close to 15 years, would suggest take it easy for sometime initially, get to know your machine and then step on the gas. You will be perfectly fine.

[Sheel]

vroom77 - I hope you won't mind putting your e-mail contents over here as any information shared on e-mail won't be publically visible making the forum value redundant and people can actually read & share there views, maybe correcting you & me as places where we are not right.

Hi Sheel,

This is XXXXX (Vroom77), I started the thread of GS150 vs Fazer and you also commented on this. I tried thinking in a different direction wrt picking up a used bike, I think it was Aditya who mentioned this idea. Now I have an offer for 2012 CBR ABS @ 1.5L. I am put up at BLR and the bike is registered elsewhere hence a road tax expense is something to think about. I have a price of 1.3L in mind and CBR has done approx 1.5k on odo. Havent seen the bike yet but thought will find out if there is anything else that I should know before talking to the current owner. What do you think is a good price ? 25% less on OTR after an year on CBR seems a good one. What do you think ? 1.3 and 1.4 we closing is ideal ? Please advise, your help in this matter is appreciated. If possible let me know whether I can talk to you sometime today.

I would suggest, try finding a bike @ Bangalore. I am pointing out two bikes to you listed at Team BHP's classifieds.

1.

2.

Please approach with caution & do read THIS prior to checking out a used deal. Has been penned for Cars, but applies greatly to bikes as well.

CBR-250R prices have risen. The ABS ones are costing more than 2L now @ Bangalore.

I won't discuss on ABS or non ABS Motorcycles as it is a different topic altogether. ABS is always recommended BTW.

For used bikes, you have to scour around. You shall find a good deal.

And prior to finalizing the bike, please have a test-ride to gauge as to how the bike responds & that you are satisfied or not.

Thanks :-)

[amit_purohit20]

Originally Posted by vroom77

Amit, sure. Its a good exercise now as I clearly understand there is no perfect bike.

I have to ride not more than 2 kms a day.
.... I will be riding with the likes of CBR 250 and other bullets when we go on long rides.

I really don't know whether I am confusing you more or helping you

1) If your daily ride is 2 kms only with pillion.- You can go for any bike except new R15 its just too high for a pillion and looks odd with a pillion especially wife!
2) If you have back pain - I would say rule out all the sporty posture bikes like- R15,CBR 250, Apache series.
3) If you want fun to ride bikes - its again R15,CBR 250, Apache series. Add Pulsar 200 NS to the list.
4) Low and mid-end torque bikes: Pulsar 200 NS, Unicorn, GS150, Apache RTR 180.
5) Good ride experience- Basically what you want here is more commuterish seating position- Unicorn and GS150. Slightly less relaxed positions: ZMA and then Pulsar 200NS.
6) Dont want to be a frequent Garage visitor- I think you are here comparing to your Bull experiences. I would say that nearly all bikes mentioned here are more or less equally reliable and you wont be in big trouble after purchasing these bikes including Pulsar 200 NS (considering that its made from borrowed technology from proven KTM, but yes I have to accept that confirmed data is not there for this bike yet due to it being newly launched.I conservatively bet its reliability should be better than older Pulsar's).
7) If you want keep up with CBR 250 and Bullets in touring and not racing then GS150 or Unicorn should also be sufficient because there would hardly be a difference of 10-15 minutes to you to reach the same place. Also note that you are not going to tour more than 300 kms so its fine.

Looking at your requirement it seems you need a GS150 or Unicorn with a 250cc engine! which is not available.

Refinement means a lot to many people but basically engine refinement means how it performs on the NVH front. N- Noise, V-Vibration and H-Harshness.
N and V are still acceptable in some cases but not Harshness.
For eg. some people including me are fine with RTR''s Vibration. Its loud noise is a pleasure to our ears but then Harshness of the engine lets it down. Harshness means you will get the feeling that something harsh is going on inside the engine and gearbox. The sound will feel like more friction and not so pleasant sound from inside.
Handling- Bike able to maintain the same line you intend to stay.
Cornering-Easy to get in and out of corners with extreme leaning of the bike.
Flickability- Light weight bike easy to flip from one side to the other as in changing lanes in fast moving traffic without any scare.
Stability- Bike maintains its line on straight roads irrespective of mild sidewinds and under hardbraking.
(Well above meaning are what I understand, it might be different for different people!)
Tyres- I agree that Old R15 tyres although skinny were able to give a good grip because of the soft compound. Disadvantages- They get punctured easily.
So I prefer Medium compound tyres and fat ones (to compensate for the soft compound) so that they stay puncture proof and still provide reasonable grip levels. But in an RTR 180 which comes with the worst tyres on earth (Real hard compound tyres which are allergic to wet roads) there is hardly any space between the swing arm and the tyres to upgrade. Also even if the swing arm has space for upgradation the bike comes with thin width rims that make the tyre bulge prohibiting the use of the full width of the tyre. You can refer this thread for more info:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...ompared-4.html

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

4) Low and mid-end torque bikes: Pulsar 200 NS, Unicorn, GS150, Apache RTR 180.

Hi Amit!

Did you mean low & mid-end leaving the top-end? If yes, I think I would disagree on the P-200 NS's power delivery characteristic. It has got a lovely top-end (not top speed), peaky in nature, just like the R15.

You may read about my riding impressions here

Haven't really had much saddle time on the RTR-180, but remember it being frenetic & developing power all across & the 160 revved till its 12,000 rev-limit. Don't know about the RTR-180.

Tyres- I agree that Old R15 tyres although skinny were able to give a good grip because of the soft compound. Disadvantages- They get punctured easily.

This is easily solved by using tire sealant liquid. Have been using it for around 3 years now & the result is satisfactory.

On the topic of upgrading tire, find a tire of the same dimension, but a sticky one. Should provide the best balance (in terms of acceleration, handling, flickability & FE)

Thanks

[amit_purohit20]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Hi Amit!

Did you mean low & mid-end leaving the top-end? If yes, I think I would disagree on the P-200 NS's power delivery characteristic. It has got a lovely top-end (not top speed), peaky in nature, just like the R15.

You may read about my riding impressions here

Yes Sheel I was not at all talking about the Top-end here as with respect to Vroom's usage it might not be the deciding factor.

I have no doubt about P-200NS top grunt and neither RTR180 (I own one) has problem with the Top end. But I was emphasizing more on the low and mid -end power/torque delivery.

Well I already said earlier P-200NS is the best buy and the best package below 1 lakh! But then if people are skeptical about its quality I don't have long-term data to prove them wrong

Sheel would the Tyre sealant be ok on Ladakh roads if Old R15 tyre is used?

I am happy that experts like you do agree to my observations on the below 1 lakh category bike. Well other than R15 and Bullet I have never ridden any other bikes in the above 1 lakh category so commenting on them would be wrong.

Thanks!

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

Yes Sheel I was not at all talking about the Top-end here as with respect to Vroom's usage it might not be the deciding factor.

I have no doubt about P-200NS top grunt and neither RTR180 (I own one) has problem with the Top end. But I was emphasizing more on the low and mid -end power/torque delivery.

Well I already said earlier P-200NS is the best buy and the best package below 1 lakh! But then if people are skeptical about its quality I don't have long-term data to prove them wrong

I think P-200NS shall age better than other BAL products.

You are right about commenting as per vroom's usage.

Sheel would the Tyre sealant be ok on Ladakh roads if Old R15 tyre is used?

I am happy that experts like you do agree to my observations on the below 1 lakh category bike. Well other than R15 and Bullet I have never ridden any other bikes in the above 1 lakh category so commenting on them would be wrong.

Thanks!

I am no expert. I love my wheels & that is it

Sealant will work if there are punctures from nails or other debris. A cut & you are gone. Neither would the puncture twig work, nor the sealant. You have to fit a tube & later replace the tire.

Are you looking forward to buy R15's tires for the RTR-180? If yes, scour if it fits well & works. IIRC, I saw someone regret fitting one. Can't remember where, but it was sometimes back.

MRF makes good tires or look at the Michelin Sirac way. Would be better

[amit_purohit20]

Originally Posted by Sheel

I think P-200NS shall age better than other BAL products.

Are you looking forward to buy R15's tires for the RTR-180? If yes, scour if it fits well & works. IIRC, I saw someone regret fitting one. Can't remember where, but it was sometimes back.

MRF makes good tires or look at the Michelin Sirac way. Would be better

I too agree that now as Bajaj has full access to KTM technology the reliability factor would have gone up for sure.
Yes I was planning to replace my stock Stone-hard tyre with Old R15 rear tyre, and I really dont understand why would one have issues with the fitment. If I am not wrong I think both have same rim width's. Yes the sidewall height can be an issue.
If you really have any info on this do PM me.

I am now more interested in MRF MoGrip or MRF Zapper C or Vyde.
Michelin Sirac for 17" rim I dont know if it exists and if it exists its not available in Pune.

Rest all Michelin tyres are tube type and I dont want to go for tubetype at any cost so Michelin ruled out!

[vroom77]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

I really don't know whether I am confusing you more or helping you

1) If your daily ride is 2 kms only with pillion.- You can go for any bike except new R15 its just too high for a pillion and looks odd with a pillion especially wife!
2) If you have back pain - I would say rule out all the sporty posture bikes like- R15,CBR 250, Apache series.
3) If you want fun to ride bikes - its again R15,CBR 250, Apache series. Add Pulsar 200 NS to the list.
4) Low and mid-end torque bikes: Pulsar 200 NS, Unicorn, GS150, Apache RTR 180.
5) Good ride experience- Basically what you want here is more commuterish seating position- Unicorn and GS150. Slightly less relaxed positions: ZMA and then Pulsar 200NS.
6) Dont want to be a frequent Garage visitor- I think you are here comparing to your Bull experiences. I would say that nearly all bikes mentioned here are more or less equally reliable and you wont be in big trouble after purchasing these bikes including Pulsar 200 NS (considering that its made from borrowed technology from proven KTM, but yes I have to accept that confirmed data is not there for this bike yet due to it being newly launched.I conservatively bet its reliability should be better than older Pulsar's).
7) If you want keep up with CBR 250 and Bullets in touring and not racing then GS150 or Unicorn should also be sufficient because there would hardly be a difference of 10-15 minutes to you to reach the same place. Also note that you are not going to tour more than 300 kms so its fine.

Looking at your requirement it seems you need a GS150 or Unicorn with a 250cc engine! which is not available.

Refinement means a lot to many people but basically engine refinement means how it performs on the NVH front. N- Noise, V-Vibration and H-Harshness.
N and V are still acceptable in some cases but not Harshness.
For eg. some people including me are fine with RTR''s Vibration. Its loud noise is a pleasure to our ears but then Harshness of the engine lets it down. Harshness means you will get the feeling that something harsh is going on inside the engine and gearbox. The sound will feel like more friction and not so pleasant sound from inside.
Handling- Bike able to maintain the same line you intend to stay.
Cornering-Easy to get in and out of corners with extreme leaning of the bike.
Flickability- Light weight bike easy to flip from one side to the other as in changing lanes in fast moving traffic without any scare.
Stability- Bike maintains its line on straight roads irrespective of mild sidewinds and under hardbraking.
(Well above meaning are what I understand, it might be different for different people!)
Tyres- I agree that Old R15 tyres although skinny were able to give a good grip because of the soft compound. Disadvantages- They get punctured easily.
So I prefer Medium compound tyres and fat ones (to compensate for the soft compound) so that they stay puncture proof and still provide reasonable grip levels. But in an RTR 180 which comes with the worst tyres on earth (Real hard compound tyres which are allergic to wet roads) there is hardly any space between the swing arm and the tyres to upgrade. Also even if the swing arm has space for upgradation the bike comes with thin width rims that make the tyre bulge prohibiting the use of the full width of the tyre. You can refer this thread for more info:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motorb...ompared-4.html

Thanks for the detailed inputs Amit . It has come down to CBR 250 Used vs New R15. I am totally given into the quality build of these bikes. In terms of priorities its a fun to ride bike, with great handling, braking (overall safety).

If I get a good deal CBR otherwise I will pick it up orelse a new R15 to enjoy the running in and benefits of owning a new bike!!! Budget raised to 1.35L to 1.5L so as to accomodate the above choices.

Will pick one with Bangalore registration so as to avoid any hassles of roadtax, outside state number etc etc. Thanks everyone for the help your inputs and comments have helped me enhance my knowledge on bikes and biking. I am looking forward to fun days ahead.


Happy & Safe Biking .

[amit_purohit20]

^^^ Any day CBR 250 even if it means stretching for the extra moolah.

CBR 250 is a practical bike, for sports touring, good pillion seat in its segment, relaxed driving position as compared to R15 and not to forget 250 cc engine.

"There is no replacement for displacement".

[SoumenD]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20;3075454...
[B

"There is no replacement for displacement"[/b]...

Gone are the days my friend,gone are the days!!!

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

...
...I am now more interested in MRF MoGrip or MRF Zapper C or Vyde.
Michelin Sirac for 17" rim I dont know if it exists and if it exists its not available in Pune....

Go for the MRF used on Dazzler for rear, R15 front and you would be good to roll.

Siracs, I guess dont come below 120 section. Forget about them.

OT: My souped up RTR160 runs on Michelin M45-18" and they are kick-a$$ although tube-type

Originally Posted by vroom77

...CBR 250 Used vs New R15. I am totally given into the quality build of these bikes. In terms of priorities its a fun to ride bike, with great handling, braking (overall safety).

If I get a good deal CBR otherwise I will pick it up orelse a new R15 to enjoy the running in and benefits of owning a new bike!!! Budget raised to 1.35L to 1.5L so as to accomodate the above choices...

Happy & Safe Biking...

Both are pretty competent machines. Now its like choosing between Aishwarya and Priyanka Chopra. If you know what I mean. All the best

[amit_purohit20]

Originally Posted by SoumenD

Gone are the days my friend,gone are the days!!!

No I dont think so yet! I know now we are able to get more HP from smaller engines. But it does affect the reliability and also the long term refinement.

Otherwise all the touring machines would have been built from puny little engines right!
And If I am not wrong KTM or some other bike manufacturer pulled out from Paris-Dakar rally because of the restrictions on the upper limit of the engine cc. They simply said they are not able to make a bike engine reliable enough below that engine cc restriction which can take the rigor of Dakar rally and long touring.
One eg. is the P220 engine and the ZMA engine. Now everybody knows which is more relaxed and more refined and for all the old school reasons!

Any reason why you are preferring Dazzler tyre over MRF Vyde and Zapper C and why are you against the 120 section tyre?

[SoumenD]

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

Any reason why you are preferring Dazzler tyre over MRF Vyde and Zapper C and why are you against the 120 section tyre?

Because Dazzler's is 110(They are MRF as well, not sure which variant though but are decent). And 120 section on A180 will be 1st tough to fit in, 2nd an overkill.

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20

One eg. is the P220 engine and the ZMA engine. Now everybody knows which is more relaxed and more refined and for all the old school reasons!

1. P220's is an engine made by a firm which has prolly a 10th of experience compared to the firm which built the ZMA engine. Bajaj has a lot to learn. Wrong comparison
2. We were talking of displacement. Both you mentioned have similar displacement.
3. If we have to compare lets compare R15 and ZMA.Shall we?
Yamaha 150cc,17bhp vs Honda 223cc,17bhp. Makes much more sense...innit?

P.S : Lets take this further on PMs, as I think we are hijacking Vroom's thread. Incase he has got enough inputs, he may ask the mods to close the thread.

[vroom77]

Rode R15 few times and definitely CBR 250 is the winner hands down. Primarily due to the reserve power one gets with CBR and which runs out red lining in R15. I liked the extra weight and stability at higher speeds too. Been riding CBR almost daily for the past few days.

We can safely close the thread or I will post my ride pics and then we can close the thread. Its a CBR !!. Now the scouting begins to find a good one.

Thanks Amit for the classified suggestions and I am in talks with them and few other potential sellers. Where is my Aishwarya!!