[a4anurag]

In the past few months, this segment has got a few additions at a very appealing price point which a customer just can't ignore. Be it the Meteor 350 or the Honda's offering, they have stepped up the game to a level which other manufacturers have to respond to be in the game.

I have compared the following bikes in this thread:

1. Royal Enfield Meteor 350
2. Honda H'ness CB350
3. Royal Enfield Classic 350 (Alloy variant)
4. Jawa Forty-Two (Dual Disc variant)
5. Bajaj Dominar 250
6. Benelli Imperiale 400
7. Bajaj Dominar 400

Added the Bajaj twins since the price for both these bikes is in a similar range as the Meteor 350 and CB350 so will help make the comparison even better.

NOTE: Click on the picture to open a larger higher-resolution version in a new window/tab.

[Aditya]

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!

[gkveda]

Good data. Any reason why CB 300 is not compared in this? And in my view, I think, adding Dominar 400 to this league is not apt.

Reason being, power is almost double compared to any other bike. If you still want to add considering cc as main criteria, then, KTM390 also may need to be considered.

[texmonster]

If this comparo is based on price range, the Gixxer 250s and Huskvarnas can be added as well.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by gkveda

adding Dominar 400 to this league is not apt...KTM390 also may need to be considered.

Originally Posted by texmonster

If this comparo is based on price range, the Gixxer 250s and Huskvarnas can be added as well.

Where are my dear KTMs?

This work ideally needs a change in title first, say like entry level power bikes or under 500 CC or upto 400 cc in comparison. Then a lot of decision to be taken; one instance is whether engines to be compared or just motorcycles, otherwise we will have duplicates in terms of Ninja 300 & Versys 300. And sort of confusion whether Dominor 400 & KTM 390 are to be included or excluded because, despite being the same engines the output differs & so does the motorcycle functionality.

If the intent is for entry level power bikes, an important question arises, whether R15, Gixxer, FZ, all the blades from Hondas are to be included or excluded. Defining the category itself becomes a difficult choice

After such disclaimers & reasoning, then the engines/motorcycles are to be compared is my opinion, otherwise we would land comparing all the way from CT100 to H2 or with half baked cake

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by gkveda

Good data. Any reason why CB 300 is not compared in this?

Originally Posted by texmonster

If this company is based on price range, the Gixxer 250s and Huskvarnas can be added as well.

Originally Posted by aargee

Where are my dear KTMs

Apologies guys. I shall add the following bikes too:

1. KTM Duke 250
2. KTM Duke 390
3. Husqvarna
4. Honda CB300
5. Gixxer 250

Do let me know if anything has been missed out. Apologies once again.

[Abhi5868]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

1. KTM Duke 250
2. KTM Duke 390
3. Husqvarna
4. Honda CB300
5. Gixxer 250

I think the list need not be extended to include these since the 350CC segment generally refers to the cruisers. Even the engine capacity doesn't warrant for the inclusions of KTM apart from the 390. That said, the power generated by the initial suspects are more or less the same. I'm only including the 350cc Cruisers in the list, accordingly to their desirability-
1) Imperiale400
2) Jawa42
3) Meteor350
4) Honda Highness

Another factor that has been overlooked is the availability, us 3rd tier Town folks only have the RE within our physical range. The Big-Wing strategy will make sure the Highness never sees RE volumes.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Do let me know if anything has been missed out.

You may want to set a perimeter for the comparison & define those engines that fall into the boundary is my opinion, otherwise, the comparison is bound to become boundless. For instance, would it be like 200 to 400 or 150 to 400.

And, the doubles in Ninjas is going to make no sense in the comparison obivously because the twins are always powered more than the singles.

Frankly I don't understand the purpose of this comparison; for instance, Husky, KTM & Gixxer are 250s, that's the only common thing; but those engines sit on a motorcycles which are built for a completely different purpose. Ideally CB350 & RE 350 makes worthwhile comparison while Dominar & Imperiale are miles apart. Not sure if I've expressed the point well, but, I hope you catching the drift.

[ebonho]

You can only compare the KTM 390 to a "normal" 450-600 cc bike. So its not really relevant to fit it into this comparo.

At the end of the day, regardless of different sorts of classifications of bikes, the market shakes itself down into broad price slabs.

When a guy wants to buy a bike, his first consideration is what is available in the amount he has at his disposal for the purpose.

Its not as if he decides he needs/wants an Adventure and then looks at everything between the Himalayan and the Tiger before making his decision.

Cheers, Doc

[audioholic]

Sorry to say, but comparing KTM 390s to a Royal Enfield 350 is an insult to Automobile engineering. And bring in the 300 twins from Kawasaki, Yamaha or Benelli and thats taking it one step further. Its like how people at my workplace asked why I paid 4L for a 300cc bike while I could get two royal enfield 350s. No offense to any RE fan, but I think you can compare an RE 350 with the rest of the classic 350 lot and leave the Dominars, KTMs out of this game. Like others said, we cant classify bikes based on CC unlike cars(also with body type in addition). Price band and bike type will be a better basis for comparison.

[Rob UK]

Some thoughts from the other side of the world...

Price is a fact, value is subjective, so I agree that the most relevant comparison for most buyers is simply what they can get for the money - a 2 lac bike shootout - there aren't any artifical restrictions on choice in India except the import taxes that deny you choice.

Water cooled 8v 250/300 twins are, like high power 125s, ultimately mainly intended as tax/license bracket bikes for markets with an artifical limit on power or cc. They can command a premium in those markets because the buyer is unable or has a disincentive for chosing a larger engine, so will spend more within the limitation given, or, is limited on power output, so will spend more to get the same output in a better package. They'll sell in India currently because the market for bikes over 200cc is very limited on choice.

We get some great bikes out of tax & license rules - Honda's 60bhp VFR/RVF 400 V4 baby sports bikes of the 90s are brilliant. They only "worked" in the Japanese market though, the build cost made them as expensive as a VFR750, so they didn't sell much where there were no enforced reasons to pick 400 over 750. Honda barely sold any in the UK even though they have a cult following now.

If you take something like the Ninja 250-400 models, it is a standard bike in a sports coat - sporty, but not sporting. The basic DNA of the 250/300 bikes goes back to the 80s GPZ-250R. Ride a fire breathing 249cc Kawasaki KR1-S the same age and you'll know which one is the real sport bike (53bhp, 131kg, 220kph+ flat out). OK, that's a 2 stroke, but a VFR400R isn't much away from being able to live with it on track - the current <400cc "sports" models would be eaten for breakfast by both. There's no market for true small cc road racers now.

We can thank the oddities of the rules cooked up by the European Union for this. A 47bhp A2 bike has to weigh 175kg. None of the manufacturers will make a screaming 15,000rpm 250cc twin that weighs 140kg and screw a removable 35kg lead skidplate to it, because we also have the stupid rule that says a bike with <94bhp can be "restricted" to 47bhp - therefore, everyone who is willing to cheat their license rules just buys an old carbed 600 Fazer or Hornet and rips the restrictions off as soon as they have the cert for them. So - smaller cc bikes are sadly destined to remain less exciting than they used to be.

The 250R worked well for Kawasaki - it was spot on the old 2 year license limit of 33bhp in some European markets and the 250cc bracket in some Asian markets. When the European market shifted to 47bhp / 0.2kW per KG, it wasn't going to work well here any more. Kawasaki stretched it to 300cc by stroking it, but the bores are too close together to get more than +15cc, which isn't worth tooling for, so they were stuck at 300cc and 39bhp. Had they been able to bore it to 350-400cc and hit the new A2 license limit back in 2013, they would have done & that's the bike India would have. The new Ninja 400R shows this, but they'd still need a 250 for Asia - in some markets they sell the 250R and 300R side by side - the build cost is going to be close to identical, the 300 just gives them a better margin.

Your market for 200cc+ bikes that don't say "Royal Enfield" on the tank is still pretty niche.The KTM 390s are an index model - they define what a ~2.5lac bike is. The GS 310 is a little more pricey, but ultimately aimed at the same buyers. Nobody is really clear what a 3.5-4 lac bike is destined to look like in 5 years time yet. I am sure you'll get more twin cylinder 47bhp European A2 bikes flooding into the 3-5 lac price bracket - the question is who is going to break the mould?

The old Suzuki SV650S was a fabulous cheap sports bike - 70bhp 8v V-twin, bikini fairing, alloy twin spar frame, basic components but really well put together & very upgradable, including being able to add the side panels and belly pan that make them look just like a full blown 600 race rep. They sold them by the bucket load in the UK at the same price point far less engaging 47bhp bikes now occupy. Somebody is going to do it in India & if Enfield can build the 650 Continental for 3lacs, a bike like that can & hopefully will be built for 4 - once that happens it will blow the market wide open and nobody is going to want a 4lac 300cc twin.

I watch your bike market with interest to see what it is going to give the world that it wouldn't otherwise build. The CB350 has a dreadful name (Highness??? come on!!!) and won't remotely excite a speed freak, but it is cool, regardless of what it is compared to.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Rob UK

I watch your bike market with interest to see what it is going to give the world that it wouldn't otherwise build. The CB350 has a dreadful name (Highness??? come on!!!) and won't remotely excite a speed freak, but it is cool, regardless of what it is compared to.

Great post Rob. Thanks for your perspective from out of India.

Given that for the last many years (decades?) the only real well known bike export out of India was the Bullet, and for the developing world the Bajaj Pulsars, how are India made bikes being looked at now in the UK?

The Royal Enfields you still get. Always a niche nostalgia market.

Do you also get the Indian made KTMs? Have you ridden one yourself?

Cheers, Doc

[Rob UK]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Great post Rob. Thanks for your perspective from out of India.

Given that for the last many years (decades?) the only real well known bike export out of India was the Bullet, and for the developing world the Bajaj Pulsars, how are India made bikes being looked at now in the UK?

The Royal Enfields you still get. Always a niche nostalgia market.

Do you also get the Indian made KTMs? Have you ridden one yourself?

Cheers, Doc

I'm biased on old Enfields, I think they are really cool & I have spent a week with a Bullet 350 in India. I have also ridden both the 650s here and was suitably impressed. The Interceptor got 4/5 stars overall and on build quality from our biggest bike publication Motorcycle News, so they are well regarded.

The KTMs are well liked too - there is no moan on build quality or negative comparisons VS European built KTMs. I've only ridden the Duke 390, and I enjoyed it. Couldn't tell any quality difference to my friend's 660 SMC, just the SMC (ex-race bike, lots of titanium) was much more vibey, and properly rowdy. The 390s aren't all that common, but there are loads of 125s, which hold their value exceptionally well. The Duke 125 lists at £3799, a 5 year old one with 10,000 miles on the clock will still make £2500.

Overall, I think Indian manufacturers are missing a trick here really. The whole European market has a hard cut-off at 15bhp / 125cc on small bikes, they can be ridden on a proficiency certificate and/or with a car license (country dependent) rather than a bike license, and younger riders are restricted to riding them.

The market is basically Chinese made bikes from about £1200 up to about £2500, mainly with clones of basic air-cooled Japanese engines, then European, Japanese & a few Korean bikes for about £3500-£4500. The Chinese stuff had an awful reputation - the bikes are getting better, but mud sticks and people are still justifiably biased.

A few Europeans set up their own brands and rebadged Chinese import stuff - AJS and Sinnis being a couple of British ones. They have worked with their manufacturers to get better spares support and improve quality, and helped them to navigate Euro regs like tighter emissions (all injected now) and a new (stupid) rule where the rear brake has to activate the front too if they don't have ABS.

I've ridden a few low cc bikes in India - and I've ridden and worked on Chinese 125s here. I think cheap Indian bikes are probably better made, but the opportunity to leverage that and make a big dent on our market is slipping away as the Chinese get better.

Photo attached is the piston from a Chinese built Yamaha YBR copy engine:



It went bang when a friend was about 240 miles into a 300 mile trip, bent the valves, scored up the con rod, and scrapped both the head casting & the barrel. Chinese stuff is so cheap that we ordered a box of parts & rebuilt the complete top end as a 140cc.

This is very typical of Chinese built engines. A guy who rode around the world on a 1980s Honda Supercub made it all the way through SE Asia, India, Iran, Turkey & Europe on the original ancient 90cc Honda unit, then switched to a 125cc Lifan copy to do the Americas, and blew 4 up in the process.

I'm sure India can do better. Old Enfields are notorious for shoddy build, but the basic castings aren't bad like this - you can just keep tightening bolts up & throwing new rings & bearings in them indefinitely.