[GeneralJazz]

Originally Posted by shortbread

I understand Ather needs to differentiate itself in the market, especially the plethora of cheap chinese kit assembled contraptions that has sadly flooded India.

But there is a massive market out there who want a good electric scooter and are willing to pay a premium for the same. Yet what they need is an electric replacements of their Activas and Scootys, not a Tesla on two wheels.

Charge it, Start it, Run it! No drama, no bluetooth connectivity, no phone apps, no voice commands, no customer exclusives.... a simple good quality electric scooter with a speedo and battery charge/range indicator.

Originally Posted by aargee

I mean, why should Ather change to Aam Aadmi model? What happens to those existing customers who thought they were having a very premium product feel? Yes, there will be new business, new customers, money flowing in, but, at what cost? Wouldn't there be more customers feel the same Aam Aadmi?

I don't think the OP was talking about a cheaper model. More like a simpler/ less tech version. The old Android-iOS comparisons come to mind. There a lot of people who would prefer a clean, simple "no drama" version. To be frank, I would prefer something like that too.

I had an old Lenovo phone, which had a battery life extender feature. If turned on, the smartphone would essentially turn into a dumb phone - just calls & SMS. Since these e-scooters have so much software, maybe it would be possible for them to add such a mode, which if enabled, would display only a speedometer and charge meter i.e switch to dumb phone mode. Other features can be switched off, till they are activated again. Guess it would depend on customer feedback.

[gusfring]

It will surely take a lot more time for EVs to get cheaper. Till then, I'd rather see Ather doll out similar offerings. Reason? Bringing out a cheaper version hasn't done well for them (remember the 340??) Also, when product is cheaper there may be a significant decrease in battery specs and top speeds, significant enough to even discourage someone with less need. While bringing a cheaper product might just bode well for them right now (with petrol prices triple-digiting) the lingering issues about range anxiety (which only time can solve) and the obvious thoughts that a lac is not giving out too much in terms of range, etc may still lure people to end up shelling 100+ for petrol anyways.

A less tech version? I think the biggest USP of all EVs is, simply put, the tech itself. Ather plans to attract the new age millennials and they are definitely doing it right. While that may not be done, Ather could simply do a minimal mode, which when toggled probably shows much less on screen (just the Speedo, has the normal ride mode as default for optimal range-performance, distance to empty of battery).

[chennai-indian]

What about Hero Electric? They seem to have a lot of options at a much lower price bracket. When I went to my town in Kerala, was surprised to see a big Hero Electric showroom with good sales!!.

[JagMan]

Originally Posted by srini1785

What makes you think that we pay premium price for these features?. The primary cost in any EV is the battery followed by BLDC motor then the frame. The cost of the electronics would be the least as kits for Bluetooth and LCD screens are available in few hundred rupees. I am talking retail so wholesale would be even lower. So I don't see any much price difference even if they do opt for a mango model which would utilize the same basic setup.

The cost of the components may be negligible but having a team to develop these features and maintaining them is likely a huge cost to the company.

[vvivek85]

Great thread, I am in the market for EV scooter, I loved Ather but I am not comfortable in paying 1.6L. TVS and Bajaj yet to launch in Chennai, so I have very minimal options as we speak now. Considering the petrol prices are going north, this is a huge market in coming years and I forsee many manufacturers tapping this market.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by chennai-indian

What about Hero Electric? They seem to have a lot of options at a much lower price bracket. When I went to my town in Kerala, was surprised to see a big Hero Electric showroom with good sales!!.

Their two wheelers are cheap chinese ones that are assembled by Hero in India. Feel tacky and brittle. Similarly, there are also other chinese assembly operators like Okinawa. Not interested in these.

Irony is that Hero Motors is in investor in Ather.

While value for money is definitely important, I understand why electric scooters charge a premium and this we are willing to accept. Electricity for us is virtually free due to solar vi's a vi's the money being spent currently for petrol.

The problem is the lack of choice. Bajaj & TVSs electric scooters are like marketing halo products. Not meant to be real market contenders, at least that's what I feel like.

Q. Do you make electric two wheelers?
A. Yes we do, our company is environmentally responsible.... future technology.... EV presence.. blah...blah
Q. Wow, I'm impressed, can I buy one?
A. No Sir!

Ather is the only option.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by GeneralJazz

I don't think the OP...Guess it would depend on customer feedback.

One simple question struck - Does Ather Energy knows that our expert discussions that are going on here based on discussion forum that a team of IIT engineers, R&D, sales, marketing & business analysts who're getting paid to do their jobs do not know?

>>> I rest my discussion any further on how Ather Energy should make their products & envision their business <<<

[robindsouza82]

Hero electric and hero Moto are managed by two different branches of the Munjal family and I think they have a non compete where one branch cannot launch a business affecting the other branch

Which explains Hero Motocorp's investment in Ather and also the lack of Electric scooters or motorcycles from Hero Moto corp.

We need Honda to do an Electric Activa to breathe new life into this segment.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by GeneralJazz

I don't think the OP was talking about a cheaper model. More like a simpler/ less tech version. The old Android-iOS comparisons come to mind. There a lot of people who would prefer a clean, simple "no drama" version. To be frank, I would prefer something like that too.

This is the exact question I asked them in 2018 when I test ridden Ather 450. I always use my ICE scooter in known routes, mostly home to office or local stores. I do not need navigation, and unwilling to pay a monthly fee for the same, there are only 2 instances I can think of when I actually used gmaps in the last 6 years on my ICE scooter, both times I stopped the scooter checked the waypoints and proceeded, even though it's a hassle it does not bother me much.

As much as I want to support Ather, I too need an aam Aadmi scooter from them. I am impressed by Chetak, also like to check the Ola scooter if they price it competitively before deciding one. The range is not a problem as anything more than 30km in one direction I prefer car as the scooter gives back pain on our Bangalore roads.

Actual cost of EV scooters are lesser than what we are usually seeing, the battery costs just 3kwh*75₹*120$ = ₹27K. EVs do not have the advantage of the economies of scale like the Activa and also have to add the initial R&D costs.

[NPV]

Originally Posted by aargee

I mean, why should Ather change to Aam Aadmi model? What happens to those existing customers who thought they were having a very premium product feel? Yes, there will be new business, new customers, money flowing in, but, at what cost? Wouldn't there be more customers feel the same Aam Aadmi?

Yes, I think there's no going towards scaled down, cost effective, Aam aadmi version(s) from Ather, they will perceive this as a hit to their "premium product" image that they consider is a big market differentiator.

[GeneralJazz]

Originally Posted by aargee

One simple question struck - Does Ather Energy knows that our expert discussions that are going on here based on discussion forum that a team of IIT engineers, R&D, sales, marketing & business analysts who're getting paid to do their jobs do not know?

>>> I rest my discussion any further on how Ather Energy should make their products & envision their business <<<

I didn't get your point. Are you trying to say that a company shouldn't listen to customer feedback? I think in your haste to reply, you didn't properly read my post. I never mentioned anything about their business model or products, I only said they could add some software features that could let a user limit the features available.

If you think that they shouldn't listen to consumer feedback, you probably shouldn't go through this forum. They are literally listening to customer feedback here.

OT: IIT, R&D engineer here, working for an automobile company. Customer feedback is extremely important to us.

[prasi55]

I totally agree that Ather needs an Aam Aadmi model.
I checked out the Ather 450 Plus, Ather 450X, and TVS iQube last week.

While the Ather models impressed with their better build (including paint quality), braking, and belt-driven motor, the on-road price of 145000/170000 plus optional subscription for tech (1600 to 2800 excluding GST) plus optional but preferred service plan (3200 to 4400 excluding GST) drove me away.

My Mahindra E2O electric car cost less than 2000 per year for servicing (including free pickup and drop). It also had most or all of the same tech features for free throughout my ownership. I could even switch on/off the AC using my phone -- a feature I used exactly once in 5+ years of ownership.

Reluctantly, I booked the TVS iQube. The on-road price of 115000 (plus 8K for the portable charger), free tech subscription for the first year and optional 900 for subsequent years, and (claimed) 400 servicing cost for 4000 km running seems much more reasonable to me.

EVs are relatively new in India. For them to catch on, the barriers to entry must be low. Maybe Ather wants their products to be seen as aspirational, but it may just drive down their sales. Consequently, more players will enter the market and offer cheaper pricing (and likely cheaper products) -- doing more harm rather than good to the EV landscape in India.

Even Apple sold the Aam Aadmi iPhone SE and now iPhone SE 2020.

[souvikjana83]

Is there any particular reason why you didn't consider any other Brands apart from Ather/Bajaj/TVS? There are many other new brands and models which has come up in the 2 Wheeler EV space in last 5 years and you should consider checking them out. As per me you should definitely check out the below 3-4 models as it's comparatively less on tech and hence more affordable but has good power and range:

1. Hero Electric Photon
2. Benling Aura
3. PureEV EPluto 7G
4. Ampere Zeal

I myself am an owner of PureEV EPluto 7G which I got for ₹85000 on road Pune last year. It has a top speed of 65 kmph on full charge and give around 100 kms range in one full charge. On top of it, it's battery is removable and can be charged at home in 3-4 hrs. The only negetive side of the scooter is it lacks storage space but I am okay with it. Overall I am very happy with the scooter especially with petrol prices crossing ₹100 per litre..

[white_wolf]

Originally Posted by srini1785

What makes you think that we pay premium price for these features?. The primary cost in any EV is the battery followed by BLDC motor then the frame. The cost of the electronics would be the least as kits for Bluetooth and LCD screens are available in few hundred rupees. I am talking retail so wholesale would be even lower. So I don't see any much price difference even if they do opt for a mango model which would utilize the same basic setup.

Very true. This maybe one of the reasons that all the EV 2Ws that we have seen so far have been aggressively highlighting the tech aspects of the vehicle apart from the fact that they are EVs. Maybe its just a marketing ploy to justify the increased cost of the EVs.

Mr. Rajiv Bajaj himself said during the launch phase of chetak that "since startups are burning cash, its now our turn to do so".

So its quite probable that even Chetak EV is not profitable for Bajaj at this price. They were forced to launch at that price point since there was a capable product already in the market and they would have hated to look overpriced than a startup at launch itself. No other reason explains, why Chetak is not available in any city so far. They could have massacred the competition with the kind of reach they have (as compared to startups). Same goes for TVS as well. Even after 1.5 yrs of launch both remain just showpiece products.

It will be interesting to see the prices and the specs at which some of the new vehicles would be launched like Ola Electric 2W, Simple energy EV, Earth EV etc. That would give us some more credible base to compare two wheeler EV prices.

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

Let's take a look at the Business strategy of Tesla. At the time of Tesla's founding, electric vehicles were very expensive. So they first produced high-price, low volume vehicles, for a less price-sensitive market. This allowed them to slowly bring down the cost of batteries and tech, which in turn allowed them to offer cheaper and higher volume cars. .[/b]

Although it looks like that Ather started with Tesla-Like strategy, but recent product pricings and company statements show that they have deviated from that quite significantly if they were doing that. Tesla's aim of first expensive luxury vehicle was to fund their next project of relatively lower cost vehicle, build up battery tech and generate scale to bring down battery cost. Ather has gone on record to say that they used to lose money on every vehicle in the 450, so where is the saving for next project, battery tech!!??

Even the total Indian electric 2W annual volumes would be insufficient to make any major impact on the scale at which the global battery suppliers operate in. So no point in talking scale at the moment.

[prasi55]

Originally Posted by souvikjana83

As per me you should definitely check out the below 3-4 models as it's comparatively less on tech and hence more affordable but has good power and range:

1. Hero Electric Photon
2. Benling Aura
3. PureEV EPluto 7G
4. Ampere Zeal

I myself am an owner of PureEV EPluto 7G which I got for ₹85000 on road Pune last year. It has a top speed of 65 kmph on full charge and give around 100 kms range in one full charge. On top of it, it's battery is removable and can be charged at home in 3-4 hrs. The only negetive side of the scooter is it lacks storage space but I am okay with it. Overall I am very happy with the scooter especially with petrol prices crossing ₹100 per litre..

I already have an Ampere v60, which uses lead-acid batteries. The most affordable solution for me would be to replace its battery (15k) and use it for another 2 years. I did check out the above models, but for 20-30K less:

• their performance is only slightly better than my current lead-acid scooter, which gave 40-45kmph and did slopes easily as well
• they make other compromises, such as too light build (70-75 kg weight), little to no boot space, little to no space for pillion rider, smaller wheels (10-inch vs 12-inch), poorer suspension or using mostly cheaper quality battery cells from China
• their after-sales service can be a hit or miss. I read about some having only an email option for complaints and not responding to emails for weeks.

In general, the way the 2-wheeler EV landscape is evolving, companies are taking divergent approaches to bring out EV scooters at an affordable price point. This is both good and bad. The ones that appeal to me the most and have the best chance of doing well, in my opinion, are ones that look and feel most like the corresponding ICE-powered scooter while being the same price or max 20-25K more expensive.