[amey027]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

Actual cost of EV scooters are lesser than what we are usually seeing, the battery costs just 3kwh*75₹*120$ = ₹27K. EVs do not have the advantage of the economies of scale like the Activa and also have to add the initial R&D costs.

Unfortunately, that isn't the reality. Ather's battery costs as much as the on-road cost of an Activa. The total cost of building the scooter far exceeds the selling cost. People tend to forget the INR 1.6 lakh is including the 29k Fame subsidy Ather is receiving, which takes the actual selling cost to a whooping INR 1.9 lakh, excluding registration, insurance and road-tax.

Someone here mentioned Ather had to cancel the S340 model. They have discontinued the standard S450 as well. And being someone who was part of the Ather's team, let me tell you a secret. The BOM for Ather 340, 450, 450 plus and 450X is the same. The battery, motor, dashboard, chassis etc are the exact same across the 4 models. Ather never had a plan to make the S450, the S340 was the original scooter. However, since the BOM cost of the scooter was enormous and the S340 was supposed to be in the INR 1-1.2 lakh bracket, they cancelled it as it would make heavy losses. Which is they launched the S450 directly. But even with this, they continued making losses. The only difference between 450 and 450X is the BMS maturity. The BMS on 450X is advanced and allows Ather to use their battery pack to its fullest ability, extracting more Range and Performance, but the bottomline BOM cost is still the same. That allowed them to charge higher for the 450X while keeping the cost of building the scooter same, may be even lower considering they now have increased production thus giving them advantage of economies of scale. They are still in loss/unit vehicle sold, but the loss is much lower than before.

That's the reason why Ather wouldn't launch a lower/standard version of the scooter. To provide the similar range as now, the battery would still be the same. Yes, they can downgrade the motor but the difference in cost wouldn't be significant. Even if they get rid of the connected tech, it would still not contribute a lot. The scooter may end up costing around INR 1.2 lakh with subsidy, which is still more expensive than everything on the market. They would have to completely revamp their design (steel tubular chassis, hub motor etc) to further get the cost down which would be a new development and would take them another 3 years to hit the market, which will be late.

Had Ather been able to stick to their original timeline of 2016 launch, they would have been in a great situation to develop a new scooter from ground up for the mass market. However, with the increasing petrol cost, they may not need to do it. May be a 1.2 lakh scooter might end up becoming a mass market scooter in another year or so if petrol prices keep rising at the current rate.

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

Well, Ather is actually going the opposite way to Tesla. 450x priced much higher than 450. At the time of 450 launch they said, they will launch cheaper models in the future, but they actually launched a much costlier model.

Originally Posted by white_wolf

Although it looks like that Ather started with Tesla-Like strategy, but recent product pricings and company statements show that they have deviated from that quite significantly if they were doing that. Tesla's aim of first expensive luxury vehicle was to fund their next project of relatively lower cost vehicle, build up battery tech and generate scale to bring down battery cost. Ather has gone on record to say that they used to lose money on every vehicle in the 450, so where is the saving for next project, battery tech!!??

The strategy is similar to Tesla's not exactly same. The way I see it is that 450 and 450X are pretty much one product. 450 was an "introductory pricing" to test the waters even though it was making a loss. Ather got some positive response and hence they got the confidence to increase the price. But just hiking the price for the 450 would've been a disaster. So they've just changed a few things here and there and placed the 450x as a different model altogether. The cost of the difference in 450x compared to the 450 is definitely less than the price difference between the two vehicles. 450 and 450x combined together is the Roadster equivalent of Tesla. The next vehicles should be more affordable or I'll say should offer more value for the price tag.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by amey027

Unfortunately, that isn't the reality. Ather's battery costs as much as the on-road cost of an Activa. The total cost of building the scooter far exceeds the selling cost. People tend to forget the INR 1.6 lakh is including the 29k Fame subsidy Ather is receiving, which takes the actual selling cost to a whooping INR 1.9 lakh, excluding registration, insurance and road-tax.

I have taken average battery costs ~120$/kWh. If the battery costs OTR of Activa, is Ather buying the batteries for more than $350? that's very high, is there any reason for buying at those prices. What kind of batteries is Ather using, according to latest Bloomberg report LiFe batteries average prices are at 80$.

[Gansan]

Exactly my point. What I need from my Splendor is to take me from point A to B in a reliable and fuss free manner. Which it does. With great FE to boot. I don't want it to be intelligent, intuitive or talk to me. What I want is a bike, not a smartphone on wheels.

[souvikjana83]

Originally Posted by prasi55

I already have an Ampere v60, which uses lead-acid batteries.
=====
corresponding ICE-powered scooter while being the same price or max 20-25K more expensive.

I don't have a very long term ownership review of my EPluto 7G as I bought it last year only, but thankfully I have 2 PureEV retailers / service centers near my place. And the only time I went there after purchase is for the yearly maintenance of my scooter which cost me ₹ 230. I can tell that the scooter is quite comfortable to ride and neither I found any suspension issue nor the seat is small for person riding behind.

Also since PureEV is Hyderabad based startup, they make their batteries in house and not import from China.

Though I don't have much information regarding the other companies. But I see few EPluto 7G and Benling Auras near my place.

While overall the outlook of EVs in 2 Wheeler space is positive, one of the biggest setbacks of 2 Wheeler EVs has to be Okinawa. With such a huge network, their scooters encountered battery issues which just make people stay away from EVs altogether . In today's times, that is unforgiving.

[prasi55]

Originally Posted by souvikjana83

I don't have a very long term ownership review of my EPluto 7G as I bought it last year only, but thankfully I have 2 PureEV retailers / service centers near my place. And the only time I went there after purchase is for the yearly maintenance of my scooter which cost me ₹ 230. I can tell that the scooter is quite comfortable to ride and neither I found any suspension issue nor the seat is small for person riding behind.

Thanks for your feedback. I have two TVS retailers/service centers within 2 km from my place, that swayed my decision towards TVS. Also, I wanted a worthy upgrade from my current scooter in terms of performance, space, and features.
How many km have you done on the EPluto and how much, if any, has the range dropped? I did not notice any range drop in my E2O until 5 years, when the range abruptly dropped from 120 km to 88 km.

It seems, after reading the posts on this thread, and the very helpful insider insight about Ather, that Ather probably does not need an Aam Aadmi model. It does give the feeling of a very well-engineered scooter -- a la Aprilia. I just wish they did not charge exorbitantly for their service.

It's then left to one of the mass market scooter manufacturers (Honda, Suzuki, looking at you?) to make an Aam Aadmi scooter, with variants at different price points to meet different customer needs (range, storage, drum vs disc brakes, and connected features).

[am1m]

I'd love a cheaper Ather too! But after seeing this...

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/motor...aad-india.html (Atumobile starts delivering electric bike Atum 1.0 | Can we now sell any jugaad in India?)



Guess we'll have to wait for one of the major bike brands to come up with a made in India mass e-scoot produced in sufficient volumes (and not just importing and re-branding Chinese escoots!) to bring down costs. What happened to the eChetak? I thought they would be all over the place by now, but haven't seen even one on the road; have seen many more Athers. And I hear Bajaj isn't even taking more bookings.

[MSC]

The biggest issue which should be the concern is the availability. These electric two wheelers are not to be found everywhere in the country. Though the number of cities is increasing, still these are not available in majority of the country. Limited availability should be the cause of concern more than the cheaper models.
In most cases, the production is limited and as the consequence the availability is limited. If production is increased along with the availability, it will reach more and more people. Once more people start buying, the companies too will have the last laugh to the bank.

[spoth001]

Ather strategy is completely different. They do not want to cater mass market. Just like Tesla, they want it to be grabbed by people who can afford. This is my opinion though. Also they should continue to make the product look futuristic else it will fade away like many OEM's. May be they should give a base price for basic features and then charge optional if a user wants to scale up.

[amey027]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

I have taken average battery costs ~120$/kWh. If the battery costs OTR of Activa, is Ather buying the batteries for more than $350? that's very high, is there any reason for buying at those prices. What kind of batteries is Ather using, according to latest Bloomberg report LiFe batteries average prices are at 80$.

The reports although not far from reality, are definitely twisting it a little. The 80$/kWh is only the cost of raw materials of individual cells, not the actual cost of the battery pack. It doesn't include the manufacturing cost, overheads, profits etc of the cell manufacturer. Add to this the BOM cost of the battery pack which includes many more components aside from the cells. Moreover, this is for LiFe cells, not NMC cells that Ather and most of the other automotive world uses. LiFe cells are only used in China, mainly for their buses and in India, for electric rickshaws. NMC cells still cost somewhere around 130$/kWh, battery pack would cost anywhere around 180-200$/kWh and then add the taxes on top of it which is around 43%.

[amey027]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

The strategy is similar to Tesla's not exactly same. The way I see it is that 450 and 450X are pretty much one product. 450 was an "introductory pricing" to test the waters even though it was making a loss. Ather got some positive response and hence they got the confidence to increase the price. But just hiking the price for the 450 would've been a disaster. So they've just changed a few things here and there and placed the 450x as a different model altogether. The cost of the difference in 450x compared to the 450 is definitely less than the price difference between the two vehicles. 450 and 450x combined together is the Roadster equivalent of Tesla. The next vehicles should be more affordable or I'll say should offer more value for the price tag.

Actually, the 450 and 450X are the same exact scooters. No difference in components at all, carbon copy. The only difference is in software. Ather has limited the power and range in 450/450 plus through software, but the hardware is still the exact same. And they are still making a loss even on the 450X. Without the subsidy, the scooter costs around INR 1.8 lakh, which is insane.

Personally, I don't find the scooters worth the money. In Bangalore, 450X costs INR 1.7 lakh on-road. Moreover, their smart tech needs a separate annual subscription, which costs another INR 2000 for the lite version, INR 3000 for the pro version. This makes no sense to me, having already paid huge money upfront. I am not even considering the service subscription that costs another INR 2500. Warp mode although exciting, is downright dangerous and not meant for city roads, even the better ones. You would mostly spend your time either in Eco or Ride mode, rarely using the other 2 modes. The performance in Eco & Ride modes is equal to what TVS IQube offers, at a much lower price point. Moreover, TVS is also offering their subscription at INR 999 from the 2nd year, 1st year being free. The only major difference is the design and the Google maps. TVS offers navigation, but it's just turn by turn rather than actual maps, which to me isn't a deal breaker.

Although for me, the biggest deal breaker was that whining sound that comes every time you accelerate from standstill, and stays until you hit 25-30 kmph. It's inconsistent across scooters, as in the sound is less in some, high in others. This was confirmed by a friend, who works in Ather and it depends on your luck, what scooter you get. The test scooter I rode was ridiculously loud, to the point of frustration every time I had to stop in traffic and then accelerate again.

Originally Posted by souvikjana83

.......Also since PureEV is Hyderabad based startup, they make their batteries in house and not import from China.

.....

Just so you know, no one, literally no one in India (2 wheelers only) except TVS, Ather and Ultraviolette are developing batteries in-house. Even then, the cells are still exported from Korea, whose raw materials still come from China. Not even Bajaj, as thier battery pack is completely developed and assembled in China and imported into India directly by Bosch. Not to mention, except the above 4 names I mentioned, everyone else is importing even the scooters from China in one or another form.

[prasi55]

Originally Posted by amey027

Personally, I don't find the scooters worth the money. In Bangalore, 450X costs INR 1.7 lakh on-road. Moreover, their smart tech needs a separate annual subscription, which costs another INR 2000 for the lite version, INR 3000 for the pro version. This makes no sense to me, having already paid huge money upfront. I am not even considering the service subscription that costs another INR 2500.
The performance in Eco & Ride modes is equal to what TVS IQube offers, at a much lower price point. Moreover, TVS is also offering their subscription at INR 999 from the 2nd year, 1st year being free.

This is exactly why I purchased the TVS iQube, despite the better build quality of Ather 450+. If the difference between Ather 450 and 450+/450X is just/mainly software, then could Ather not have continued to sell the Ather 450 in addition to 450+/450X? When I went for delivery of my iQube, I saw a customer whose father was happily using Ather 450 for 2 years, but the customer canceled his Ather 450X booking and purchased a TVS Jupiter petrol scooter -- because he did not find the price difference between Ather 450X and Ather 450 to be justified.

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by amey027

Actually, the 450 and 450X are the same exact scooters. No difference in components at all, carbon copy. The only difference is in software.

No, the 450 and 450x are not same. Starting with the cells in the 450 which are 18650 vs 21700 in the 450+/450x. I've seen the manufacturing lines of both the 450 and the 450+/450x and I know that there are many things different.

And they are still making a loss even on the 450X.

I don't think so, couple of days ago, I saw a tweet that they've crossed over to positive margins for the first time. price increase, cost reduction, higher scales would be the major contributors to this

Without the subsidy, the scooter costs around INR 1.8 lakh, which is insane.

Nothing insane about it. A completely new product, a new company...This is expected. From what I've heard, each Chetak costs more than 2lakhs for Bajaj. In general EVs are still expensive and that's why we have schemes like FAME. Nexon EV, Chetak, iQube, E2O (till it was produced) all cost a lot to make. Final price to the customer is subsidized and/or absorbed by the manufacturer.

Warp mode although exciting, is downright dangerous and not meant for city roads, even the better ones. You would mostly spend your time either in Eco or Ride mode, rarely using the other 2 modes.

Its interesting that you say they are dangerous. Then the KTMs, Husqvranas, and the many 250cc vehicles should be termed fatally dangerous then! The top speed of Ather scooters are 80kmph and the city speed limit is 60kmph. I don't see how this can be downright dangerous. The dual disc brakes do a wonderful job too. ABS and better tyres should've been there but the stock setup is not "downright dangerous"

From my experience, nobody would ever want to ride this scooter in ECO mode. In fact, not only is it the worst, it's the most dangerous of the modes. Try riding it in ECO mode on ORR in Bengaluru with a Truck behind you. I hate that Eco mode so much that I've been asking Ather to give an override option when the scooter changes to ECO mode when the battery reaches 17%. They've not done it so far and couple of time I've been forced to ride the last couple of kms back to home in Eco mode.

I don't have the warp mode but I always ride in the Sports mode within the city. My wife and father ride it in Ride mode. Ride and Sports are the best modes for the usual city rides IMO. Warp is for those few when you want to make a quick overtake or experience some high speeds (read 80kmph) on city highways.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

I don't think so, couple of days ago, I saw a tweet that they've crossed over to positive margins for the first time. price increase, cost reduction, higher scales would be the major contributors to this.

Just saw below news.

In a first, Ather has been able to register positive margins for the first time. Startups require heavy investments and achieving profitability is often an uphill task. With positive margins, Ather is in a better position to attract new investments, boost production and expand operations to new cities.

https://www.rushlane.com/ather-repor...-12399057.html

[amey027]

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

No, the 450 and 450x are not same. Starting with the cells in the 450 which are 18650 vs 21700 in the 450+/450x. I've seen the manufacturing lines of both the 450 and the 450+/450x and I know that there are many things different.

I meant the 450 plus and 450X. 450 is anyway discontinued. Difference between plus and X is mainly software.

I don't think so, couple of days ago, I saw a tweet that they've crossed over to positive margins for the first time. price increase, cost reduction, higher scales would be the major contributors to this.

Good to know this. I hope they can further get down the manufacturing cost, there's no scope for increasing selling cost anyway

Nothing insane about it. A completely new product, a new company...This is expected. From what I've heard, each Chetak costs more than 2lakhs for Bajaj. In general EVs are still expensive and that's why we have schemes like FAME. Nexon EV, Chetak, iQube, E2O (till it was produced) all cost a lot to make. Final price to the customer is subsidized and/or absorbed by the manufacturer.

Its insane for a scooter. No matter how much performance you fill it with, its still a scooter. Like I mentioned, outside the warp mode, it felt similar to TVS which costs couple of tens of thousands lesser. Obviously TVS has the advantage of pricing it low because they are making money elsewhere, but a customer doesn't really care about that.

Its interesting that you say they are dangerous. Then the KTMs, Husqvranas, and the many 250cc vehicles should be termed fatally dangerous then! The top speed of Ather scooters are 80kmph and the city speed limit is 60kmph. I don't see how this can be downright dangerous. The dual disc brakes do a wonderful job too. ABS and better tyres should've been there but the stock setup is not "downright dangerous"

From my experience, nobody would ever want to ride this scooter in ECO mode. In fact, not only is it the worst, it's the most dangerous of the modes. Try riding it in ECO mode on ORR in Bengaluru with a Truck behind you. I hate that Eco mode so much that I've been asking Ather to give an override option when the scooter changes to ECO mode when the battery reaches 17%. They've not done it so far and couple of time I've been forced to ride the last couple of kms back to home in Eco mode.

ORR has a top speed limit of 50kmph. I own a Duke 390 and I don't cross that speed limit, never been hit by a truck. As for dangerous, I test rode a scooter and it fishtailed every single time I accelerated in warp mode. No one needs it. It's a scooter for God's sake. And the acceleration is too overwhelming, one mistake and you could end up hitting someone.

Every single owner I know mostly rides in Eco mode, otherwise the drop in range can be significant. Like I mentioned, I own a Duke 390 and even I ride with a feather touch when inside the city. Mileage/Range matters the most.

I don't have the warp mode but I always ride in the Sports mode within the city. My wife and father ride it in Ride mode. Ride and Sports are the best modes for the usual city rides IMO. Warp is for those few when you want to make a quick overtake or experience some high speeds (read 80kmph) on city highways.

You can't just switch to warp mode for an overtake. You need to come to a standstill for that.