[The Great]

This video has striking similarity with my accident, although my bike was not tilted so much but was nearly same. In a split second the bike lost control. Also has the similar knee injury like me (still recovering and awaiting the knee ACL surgery).

My original question was relating to this. In this case scenario would the ABS have helped.

Front wheel locked

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by The Great

This video has striking similarity with my accident, although my bike was not tilted so much but was nearly same. In a split second the bike lost control. Also has the similar knee injury like me (still recovering and awaiting the knee ACL surgery).

My original question was relating to this. In this case scenario would the ABS have helped.

If you carefully examine the video, you can see that the front wheel slipped while the fork was fully compressed due to sharp braking. This lead to the steering handlebar to tilt and the rider lost control and fell. ABS would've for sure helped for preventing locking of wheels but the guy was also leaning in which case the normal ABS would've been inadequate. I believe the bike in the video had an ABS reason is I could see the wheel not fully locked but spinning despite of sharp braking. This is where cornering ABS comes into play which is found on some high end bikes. It is a very good technology with regards to safety.

The knee injury could've been avoided had the rider worn a good quality knee guard.

In case of your fall remember to use a combination of both front and rear brake while braking on a heavy motorcycle like Royal Enfield. These bikes are nose heavy and nose dive on sharp braking. I use a combination of 60(front):40(rear) braking ratio. Also I could see from your pics that you shared on another thread about mounting Himalayan windshield on your CL500 that you are using a three rod horizontal crash bar as well as diamond crash guard. I had a couple of falls and I vouch by the diamond crash guard in being very effective albeit my bike also has rear crash guards. Also wearing good quality certified knee guards would have prevented injury to your knees.

[The Great]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

If you carefully examine the video, you can see that the front wheel slipped while the fork was fully compressed due to sharp braking. This lead to the steering handlebar to tilt and the rider lost control and fell. ABS would've for sure helped for preventing locking of wheels but the guy was also leaning in which case the normal ABS would've been inadequate. I believe the bike in the video had an ABS reason is I could see the wheel not fully locked but spinning despite of sharp braking. This is where cornering ABS comes into play which is found on some high end bikes. It is a very good technology with regards to safety.

Yes absolutely correct sir.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

The knee injury could've been avoided had the rider worn a good quality knee guard.

It surely would have helped, but since it was a local place (the theatre where the accident took place is about 2 kms from my house) I didn't think of wearing knee guards and stuff.

Originally Posted by navin_v8

In case of your fall remember to use a combination of both front and rear brake while braking on a heavy motorcycle like Royal Enfield. These bikes are nose heavy and nose dive on sharp braking. I use a combination of 60(front):40(rear) braking ratio. Also I could see from your pics that you shared on another thread about mounting Himalayan windshield on your CL500 that you are using a three rod horizontal crash bar as well as diamond crash guard. I had a couple of falls and I vouch by the diamond crash guard in being very effective albeit my bike also has rear crash guards. Also wearing good quality certified knee guards would have prevented injury to your knees.

The three rod horizontal crash guard was immediately changed to the diamond one after the accident.

On all our long rides ironically it was me who always was of the opinion of wearing full gear, but unfortunately in the domestic place like 2 kms away from my house I guess no one would have thought of wearing the guards and jackets (which is another point of discussion, a very important one though) and met with this accident which led me to think about ABS.

Although concluding the topic on this thread I am convinced:

Yes - ABS sure would have helped
Yes - Riding with gear helps

And also no matter how experienced or skilled rider you are, the roads are filled with people who will do all sorts of things without thinking about the consequences. Some people die with full gear, fully skilled riding and safest bike loaded with technology, others go un-scraped with none of the above too.

Thanks to all for the valuable insights and experiences that you all have shared.

[navin_v8]

Originally Posted by The Great

It surely would have helped, but since it was a local place (the theatre where the accident took place is about 2 kms from my house) I didn't think of wearing knee guards and stuff.

Mate I know its difficult but remember to follow ATGATT(All The Gear All The Time) principle. Ride safe.

[marcussantiago]

Originally Posted by navin_v8

Mate I know its difficult but remember to follow ATGATT(All The Gear All The Time) principle. Ride safe.

Well said. No one ever gets on their bike expecting to get into an accident on that ride itself.

Also, statistically, the most dangerous places to ride (the places where you're most likely to crash) is close to your house. You feel very familiar with the area, you've been there countless times, so you let your guard down. Or maybe you're on the way home after a long day (or long ride or trip) and you're exhausted and almost home, so your concentration and awareness drop, and you let your guard down thinking about your dinner or having a hot bath and relaxing, and this is the kind of mental state that often ends in a crash.

tl;dr ATGATT, it can be inconvenient but it's worth it. And if you do it all the time as a habit, it starts to feel natural and normal to always do it

[payeng]

ATGATT is practically possible only when Riding is on Special Occassion / Leisure / Pleasure rides..

For everyday situation.. it's best to commute in a Cage

Originally Posted by The Great

This video has striking similarity with my accident, although my bike was not tilted so much but was nearly same. In a split second the bike lost control. Also has the similar knee injury like me (still recovering and awaiting the knee ACL surgery).

My original question was relating to this. In this case scenario would the ABS have helped.

For Braking while turning, one needs "Corner Optimized ABS".. something that has started appearing only on high (expensive) bikes for now.

On bikes without ABS / with normal ABS: While negotiating turns it's safer to downshift and let engine braking slow the bike safely.

If one is Skilled (or simply Stupid) enough, one can try to POWER SLIDE the bike by using only the Rear brakes to lock the Rear wheel temporarily and make the corner without falling over.

But for that one would need a bike without ABS On in the rear/ ABS in off road mode/No ABS on bike.. and more importantly a stupid rider.

Correction to my previous post: Not Power Slide.. what I meant above was controlled slide by locking the Rear brakes

[joybird]

Originally Posted by payeng

ATGATT is practically possible only when Riding is on Special Occassion / Leisure / Pleasure rides..

For everyday situation.. it's best to commute in a Cage



For Braking while turning, one needs "Corner Optimized ABS".. something that has started appearing only on high (expensive) bikes for now.

On bikes without ABS / with normal ABS: While negotiating turns it's safer to downshift and let engine braking slow the bike safely.

If one is Skilled (or simply Stupid) enough, one can try to POWER SLIDE the bike by using only the Rear brakes to lock the Rear wheel temporarily and make the corner without falling over.

But for that one would need a bike without ABS On in the rear/ ABS in off road mode/No ABS on bike.. and more importantly a stupid rider.

Correction to my previous post: Not Power Slide.. what I meant above was controlled slide by locking the Rear brakes

Hi
Just saw some videos of the newly launched BMW GS 1200 Rallye abroad. Rallye being the latest addition of 2017 BMW 1200 GS. Riders testing this bike on offroad tracks said they prefer single channel ABS. Front wheel ABS only. This way they are in better control and on purpose lock rear wheel while the front is still turning.
Probably this is what you referring to in your post above.
But surely this isn't much use on daily basis on city roads. My guess it's an off road thing and that's why the feature is available in Rallye not the city/ urban model of the BMW GS 1200.
As far as cornering ABS goes...yes currently available on premium bikes only. In India we haven't got front ABS on all Indian manufactured two wheelers firstly because of safety mindset and second to that because of increase in cost. Cornering ABS is a thing of the future for now.

[sidhu_hs]

Originally Posted by The Great

In this case scenario would the ABS have helped.

No, it does not help. I fell from Apache and CBR the same way while cornering (I was not leaning as much as the rider in the video and a bit worse road condition in both cases). In both cases, I was doing about 20 to 30 kmph; and was lucky to escape only with light bruises.

Cornering ABS with Traction Control System designed for bikes might help but those things will take time to trickle down to mass market two wheelers.

A lot of people who have not experienced any fall like this from a two wheeler might wonder as to how you could fall like this, or how could you just apply front brake when you know it might cause the front wheel to lock up. Well to them, I would say that it all happens in a flash, a matter of seconds and it feels like a blur. When you see something mid corner that requires you to apply brakes at the moment, you instantly grab the front brake which is far easier to apply than jabbing on your foot for rear brake. It is like a reflex action. Now, better education or experience tells us to go against this reflex action of ours. So, we have to train ourselves not to go for the front brake or even the rear brake with full force, rather apply both brakes simultaneously and gradually increase force (yes, even in that split second, and I know it sounds counter-intuitive!).

Now, the key to braking in a corner (if you want to stop or massively reduce speed) is that one has to continue to reduce lean and straighten the handlebar as soon as brakes are applied. I understand that if you start reducing lean and continue to straighten you handlebar mid-corner, you will slowly be going in a direction that will take you off the road onto the run off area, but also, at the same time brake pressure has to gradually increase leading you to a complete stop.

I think rider on bike numbered 63 in this video illustrates in a few seconds what I am taking an essay above to explain. From 1:17 onward, you see how the rider slowly reduces his lean, straightens the handlebar and applies brakes to swerve around that crashed bike.

https://youtu.be/PgaQsCLNKNw?t=77

I wish I had someone telling me these things rather than figuring it out the hard way! I wish someone with even greater experience speaks up here, if I am taking the wrong lesson from this experience.

[payeng]

Originally Posted by joybird

Hi

Just saw some videos of the newly launched BMW GS 1200 Rallye abroad. Rallye being the latest addition of 2017 BMW 1200 GS. Riders testing this bike on offroad tracks said they prefer single channel ABS. Front wheel ABS only. This way they are in better control and on purpose lock rear wheel while the front is still turning.

Probably this is what you referring to in your post above..

Exactly the thing I have been telling for long on this Forum.

For me, my choice of ABS is Single Channel ABS/ABS on the Front wheels. I do not need ABS on the rear wheels.

1. Since I hardly use the rear to brake on normal (smooth roads)

2. Unless I am riding on gravel, loose soil or while turning (in which case I might need the rear wheels to lock for controlled slowing of the bike)

But ABS on the front is necessary since I can never control a front wheel lock Nor do I know of anyone who can control front wheel.

If one needs ABS on the rear wheels on normal (smooth) roads, that means that he uses the rear brakes to stop. In which case, one needs to learn how to brake properly on a Motorcycle.

Originally Posted by sidhu_hs

When you see something mid corner that requires you to apply brakes at the moment, you instantly grab the front brake which is far easier to apply than jabbing on your foot for rear brake. It is like a reflex action. Now, better education or experience tells us to go against this reflex action of ours.

So, we have to train ourselves not to go for the front brake or even the rear brake with full force, rather apply both brakes simultaneously and gradually increase force (yes, even in that split second, and I know it sounds counter-intuitive!).

I wish I had someone telling me these things rather than figuring it out the hard way! I wish someone with even greater experience speaks up here, if I am taking the wrong lesson from this experience.

While In a Corner, the BEST way to cut down speed is to downshift and Let ENGINE BRAKING do its job. Front Brakes during turns is very dangerous (even with Conventional ABS/Non Corner Optimized ABS).

[Axe77]

This is an interesting thread. I was just asking around some more experienced riders what is the best way to brake when at slightly higher speeds on an ABS equipped bike. Slam both brakes or just the front.

[ArizonaJim]

Originally Posted by Axe77

This is an interesting thread. I was just asking around some more experienced riders what is the best way to brake when at slightly higher speeds on an ABS equipped bike. Slam both brakes or just the front.

IMO, with or without ABS, it is always best to us both front and rear brakes together with the front brake being the predominant one.

The only difference is the front wheel with ABS brakes will not totally lock up and skid like non-ABS breaks will.

Over the past 55 years of riding, every time I layed down a motorcycle it was because the front wheel locked up under heavy breaking.

[The Great]

Originally Posted by ArizonaJim

IMO, with or without ABS, it is always best to us both front and rear brakes together with the front brake being the predominant one.

The only difference is the front wheel with ABS brakes will not totally lock up and skid like non-ABS breaks will.

Over the past 55 years of riding, every time I layed down a motorcycle it was because the front wheel locked up under heavy breaking.

I have learnt this the hard way sir.

Even after years of riding experience, the particular situation or event is not always under our control. There is no expert level on this.

I totally agree with your last sentence and have come to the conclusion that, although its debatable that ABS should be standard, in my case it would surely have avoided the crash.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by deepfreak15

Wrong! ABS is a legal requirement for bikes above 125cc now. While your points pertaining to giving you the ability to manoeuvre under braking are true that is only one facet of how wheel locking prevention can save your bacon. No amount of skill can negate an electronic nanny so if someone is looking for help in diving into the world of motorcycing it would be prudent not to brush off a safety net as "just a nice safety feature". I hear your point about learning the basic concepts of traction, grip and manouvering etc but those can be learnt with all the safety tech installed on the bike too. One does not have to deprive themselves of those just to be a better rider.

Point has been debated to death and more, here on Tbhp as well, not digging that up.

But at the end of the day even manufacturers have accepted the fact that ABS is not God Hands coming down from the skies to brake for you, it is a good to have safety feature, and all things considered something that has been mandated by law as you've mentioned.

My emphasis was simple, the basics i.e traction and braking still remain of paramount importance, this is taking into consideration the fact that if either one is disregarded an ABS system can work against the rider, which again is a disclaimer that manufacturers specifically mention as I recall reading an excerpt on Tbhp when someone shared a snap from their owners manual about ABS, again as said, topic has been debated to death and then some more.

Curious, why do most of your posts related to motorcycles have a "Small bike good, Big bike bad" theme?

OP is coming from a 100cc, I ride a 100cc.

I thought that was self explanatory from reading the OP's post.

The relatability aspect is what helps give the OP contrast, else it defeats the point of having a discussion on this topic cause a random Google search would suffice otherwise.

Edit: No disrespect meant, see for yourself;

It's almost as if you are dissuading the OP from ever considering a big bike in his life

Have you read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'?

Many claim to have read it but fact is they've not, cause those who've read the same have a holistic understanding of how the basic psyche of motorcyclists work.

To summarize there are pen-ultimately two kinds of motorcyclists when it comes to enthusiasts;

1. Pirsig(Author) Type
2. John Sutherland(Author's Friend) Type

And both have their own priorities* when it comes to the motorcycles they ride, but one thing that is mutual is that either wouldn't be satisfied riding each others motorcycle in the long-run, that simply is that.

Hence my emphasis on getting the right motorcycle for oneself, rather than the presumed 'BEST' motorcycle the market has to offer.

As I said in my first post, if the OP is interested to know why I'd not suggest any other alternatives i.e Dominar 400, Duke 390 etc that are at the top end of his purchasing power then I'd gladly explain the specifics.

*Do read the book, it is a wonderful read. If you've already read it then go back to the part where Pirsig and John have a conversation about using "shims" to fix the loose handlebar on John's BMW.

Cheers,
A.P.

[deepfreak15]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

My emphasis was simple, the basics i.e traction and braking still remain of paramount importance,

This I agree and goes without saying and no one has ever debated that.

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

OP is coming from a 100cc, I ride a 100cc.
I thought that was self explanatory from reading the OP's post.
The relatability aspect is what helps give the OP contrast, else it defeats the point of having a discussion on this topic cause a random Google search would suffice otherwise.

I am truly sorry and mean no disrespect when I say this, I see a whole lot of words strung together but can't infer any relevance to the topic of discussion.

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Have you read 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance'?

To summarize there are pen-ultimately two kinds of motorcyclists when it comes to enthusiasts;

No, and in all likelihood I never will. I don't need a book to tell me what kind of motorcycle I need and based on the title has no relevance to this thread again. The OP did not ask what bike he should buy that would be easier for him to buy and maintain himself or if he should learn how to maintain a bike himself.

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

for some reason consider my post to be high-headed or disrespectful and I am tired of having my posts scrutinized/deleted for the same reasoning as these take time to pen down,

Please don't ever change. Your point of view is completely left field and refreshing and I respect you for that. Every Ying needs a Yang.
But oh! Please don't ever buy a motorcycle above 100cc, you would upset a ton of people who decided to ditch buying any modern motorcycle above 100cc based on your advice

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

1. ABS is just a nice safety feature to have that lets you steer away from danger under hard braking, having it doesn't invariably make your motorcycle safer. Safety ultimately depends on 2 things, traction and braking, make no compromises there and you're already on the safer side.

The rest is skill honed over time cause just jamming the brakes and expecting ABS to save you doesn't really work to your advantage, you need to hone the presence of mind that'd enable you to steer away from danger while the ABS tried to maintain traction under hard braking.

I too am not trying to debate on merits of ABS as, as said by you, it has been discussed to death.

But, do you disagree to the fact that ABS won't save life?

You think, human mind can defer the traction below on a billiard smooth surface, bad roads, sand laden road and you know the types road, its surface in our country?

You might have been able to Ashwin, but, not all of us are as blessed. 250cc and bigger motorcycles may be speeding at much higher speeds [safe or not, legal or not], you think, in panic braking, one would be thinking about all this and brake accordingly?

By all this, what I am trying to put across is, while we have lots of members reading, very few commenting, we have huge amount of readers reading everyone's opinion and forming their own, in India, safety is put at last, people won't bat an eyelid and get an expensive phone [which may last 2 or 3 years], but a good helmet costing similar or less will last you 5+ years, but no one buys that. People just will not wear gears, seat-belts, list is endless.

We can just try to be as safe as we can, keep improving our skills but dissing ABS is just not done.

ABS lets you steer, ok, you think a human brain [mine can not] can tap release tap release brakes in a panic braking situation, your maybe my friend, most of us here can not .