[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by Sheel

I too am not trying to debate on merits of ABS as, as said by you, it has been discussed to death.

This is exactly the kind of scuffle I'd like to avoid, cause past a point my critical response would be perceived as rudeness without any respect given to informational value, which again is the reason why a conscious effort is made from my end to limit replying to redundant queries.

Having said that.

But, do you disagree to the fact that ABS won't save life?

I think you meant to ask me whether I disagree to the fact that ABS will save a life? Or is it the other way around?

Either way, due to the number of variables involved there simply is no hard-line answer. Hence the same is mentioned as a disclaimer by ABS companies.

If you know how an ABS system works then you'd also know that there is no "guarantee" that it will save a life, hence why I've mentioned that it is a nice feature to have and bigron has pointed out that it is a "rider-aid". And here I've done due diligence on everyone's end and shared the information after searching and finding the below excerpt from the ABS thread here on Tbhp.



This is 101 information, that everyone needs to get right, hence I'd suggest re-reading the ABS thread on Tbhp, something I've said more than once at this point if I'm not wrong, but was disregarded by not one but many for what reasonable reason I still do not understand.

It is shameful because most simply chose to hit reply to satisfy themselves rather than update their level of understanding or better educate the OP who has clearly stated that he is a beginner when it comes to motorcycles.

We can just try to be as safe as we can, keep improving our skills but dissing ABS is just not done.

This is again an assumption you've formed like many I presume when I was merely stating facts and correcting presumptions, as you can read from the above attachment, ABS doesn't indefinitely grantee better stopping distance and in fact help in maintaining directional control which I've said in simple words i.e it will help you steer away from danger under hard braking.

It also goes to state that ABS will not compensate for poor driver judgement, which is what I have positively emphasized about honing ones own skill.

ABS lets you steer, ok, you think a human brain [mine can not] can tap release tap release brakes in a panic braking situation, your maybe my friend, most of us here can not .

I have nowhere recommended to NOT use ABS or have dissed it, the only dissing I see here is people's eagerness to challenge someone that they have not even bothered to give a hoot about reading the post, fact checking or at the least use the 'search function' on Tbhp.

ABS is a mandated feature so there really doesn't arise a situation where one is given an option to purchase any of the motorcycles I've mentioned without opting for ABS. But as I've mentioned from the beginning what one can do is not get too high headed about the feature and rather focus on honing ones own skill as there simply is no way around it.

Ride Safe,
A.P.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by Sheel

You think, human mind can defer the traction below on a billiard smooth surface, bad roads, sand laden road and you know the types road, its surface in our country?

You might have been able to Ashwin, but, not all of us are as blessed. 250cc and bigger motorcycles may be speeding at much higher speeds [safe or not, legal or not], you think, in panic braking, one would be thinking about all this and brake accordingly?

Sorry to get on your nerves Ashwin but, rider aid and skills, well, one can try honing one's skills till eternity, but one can never ever brake with the same efficiency as an ABS equipped motorcycle across varied surfaces. You may actually try for your self.

Have you tried an ABS equipped motorcycle over a non-ABS one over a long distance across varied terrain? I am sorry if you posted an experience which I may have failed to read, but, seeing the immense value you bring and the knowledge / expertise you have, I would wish to know what you experienced practically. Wet roads, inter-state, bad-roads, everything in between.

Most of us have read the user manual, most of us have read the ABS's working and most of us here have experienced it on 2 wheels and 4. And we, choose to have an ABS equipped motorcycle, as we are yet to develop skills [which are as good as very few souls on mother earth] who can brake better if not as good as an ABS equipped motorcycle.

Imagine a situation where I braked, the front got jammed as there was sand, I let go of the lever, saved, but I have to brake as there is a hazard, what do I do? Try to hone my skills here? How? [I can't steer here, not much space].

[deepfreak15]

I thought long and hard before I decided to respond to your post, with this I end my thoughts on this topic as we all seem to be getting sucked into a different tangent from the original discussion (moot point because any motorcycle the OP upgrades to will come with ABS).

Lets for a moment go with your hypothesis that everything you say is right and backed with facts and anyone with an opposing view is talking through their hat.

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Attachment 2019543
This is 101 information...I've done due diligence on everyone's end

You are referring to a car manual to discuss the demerits of ABS on a motorcycle. I am assuming (yes I belong to the talking through hat group) you have taken into consideration the reduced contact patch, narrow tyre profile, lack of hydraulic brake force distribution between front and rear brake, lack of Brake assist, lack of ESP, Lean angle of vehicle, counter-steering, higher center of gravity, uneven weight distribution etc .
As a distinguished member of this forum it would be nice if you could at least refer to motorcycle related literature. Like Sheel said, a lot of people read these threads and some might take your word for the absolute truth.

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

It is shameful because most simply chose to hit reply to satisfy themselves rather than update their level of understanding or better educate the OP...…
This is again an assumption you've formed like many I presume when I was merely stating facts and correcting presumptions.....
I see here is people's eagerness to challenge someone that they have not even bothered to give a hoot about reading the post, fact checking or at the least use the 'search function' on Tbhp.
But as I've mentioned from the beginning what one can do is not get too high headed about the feature and rather focus on honing ones own skill as there simply is no way around it.

Thanks for the lesson on how to put across one's point and put down any opposing view with grace and poise, especially when it comes to discussing a crucial safety system to a person looking for help on a public forum with a lot of followers

I cant speak for everyone who thinks ABS is a critical safety net but I can speak on my point of view. Our Indian roads are not a race track where the unknowns are limited, its quite the opposite. In my limited time (lest you say since I haven't ridden the GQ I am not qualified to speak on this topic) riding motorcycles I have felt the ABS kick in only twice, does that mean I think its just a rider aid? Heck no! For me its a safety net I will not compromise on. Does that mean I am a bad rider who has no skill and puts all my faith in electronics ? I have no clue and don't intend to find out either. But if someone specifically asks me, I will always say "The more tech you can get while learning the better". Eventually he/she will come to their own conclusions all the more wiser.
This has been a lovely topic but I have nothing more to add so I bow out

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

Hence the same is mentioned as a disclaimer by ABS companies.

Disclaimers such as these serve one main purpose - to help create a cushion against potential million-dollar class action lawsuits - and have their origins primarily in the US market.

ABS systems have been around for a decade or more now and are constantly evolving. Friends have had only praises for modern systems like Kawasaki's lean-sensitive ABS, present in bikes like the Ninja 1000 - which uses a six-axis IMU to determine various parameters in a split second before deciding on the best course of action. And that is said to be nothing compared to the modern-day electronic wizardry in BMW and Ducati machines.

Won't be long before such systems trickle down into the 650cc class, and later on - the lower segments too (390 Adventure already has one!).

But still - it will carry the same disclaimers, just as ever! Because if some guy in the US crashes his motorcycle due to his mistake also - his relatives or even his insurance company could potentially file a case for millions of dollars and the manufacturer will have to answer for the accident - if they don't put the responsibility on the rider before-hand itself. Forget ABS - my owner's manual even warns against accidents if I don't check fuel, engine oil, tyres, drive chain, bolts, nuts, fasteners, steering, brakes, throttle, clutch, coolant, all electrical accessories, engine-stop switch, all lights, side stand and center stand, and rear view mirrors - ALL of these have to be checked before a ride as per the manual.

Failure to perform these checks or to correct a problem before operation may result in serious damage or accident. Always perform daily checks before operation.

That doesn't mean all these system freak us out, does it? Will be left with only the chassis frame then! And even that may have some disclaimers (Himalayan, looking at you! )

[Geo_Ipe]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

I think you meant to ask me whether I disagree to the fact that ABS will save a life? Or is it the other way around?

Either way, due to the number of variables involved there simply is no hard-line answer. Hence the same is mentioned as a disclaimer by ABS companies.

ABS doesn't indefinitely grantee better stopping distance and in fact help in maintaining directional control which I've said in simple words i.e it will help you steer away from danger under hard braking.
A.P.

Originally Posted by Sheel

Sorry to get on your nerves Ashwin but, rider aid and skills, well, one can try honing one's skills till eternity, but one can never ever brake with the same efficiency as an ABS equipped motorcycle across varied surfaces.

Originally Posted by deepfreak15

I cant speak for everyone who thinks ABS is a critical safety net but I can speak on my point of view. Our Indian roads are not a race track where the unknowns are limited, its quite the opposite.

The question on motorcycle ABS may have been argued forever, but it remains a relevant topic, especially when the 250+ cc segment is picking up in India. When we're discussing the merits and demerits of ABS, it is important to realise what question we're answering.

Ideally, the question should be: Is an ABS equipped motorcycle safer than a non ABS motorcycle, provided all other variables remain constant - like rider technique, surafce, tyre grip, speed from braking etc. That is how all studies should be designed. There should be a "Case arm" (in this case, ABS equipped motorcycles) and a "Control arm" (with non ABS equipped motorcycles). All other variables are to be assumed equal. My answer to the above study hypothesis: Yes, ABS is superior to non ABS. In the given scenario where the OP skidded when the rickshaw appeared suddenly, ABS would have definitely helped in bringing the speed down quicker. Unless we actually do the said study, we will not have a scientifically proven conclusion, only opinions based on our experience.

I think what Ashwin's study hypothesis is or the question Ashwin is trying to answer is: Does ABS supercede riding techniques and expertise? My answer to that question would be - Depends on the situation. One cannot simply go by the statutory warnings ABS companies issue. There may be conditions where ABS may kick in too early or when braking distances are more - but it is important to understand that these are the rarest of conditions. As there is no objective way to measure technique/expertise, it will again come down to personal opinion.

I personally would recommend an ABS equipped motorcycle to anyone - be it a beginner or an expert. I don't think the average motorcycle rider in India has Ashwin's level of technical knowledge, neither do they have the intent to acquire such levels. I'm pretty sure this particular discussion will not interest >90% folk on TBHP! So when advice is given on a forum such as TeamBHP, it should be useful for novices and experts alike.

[ashwinprakas]

The manual I shared the info is from an Indian automobile i.e the Maruti Suzuki Swift, but that is irrelevant as it represents facts.

There have been law suits raised against companies that merely hinted that their ABS units were a replacement for proper braking technique;

The comments have been considered irresponsible and dangerous by university safety researcher Ross Blackman.

“It can only compensate for a lack thereof,” says the research associate at the Centre for Accident Research & Road Safety – Queensland (CARRS-Q) at the Queensland University of Technology.

“While I support the efforts of VicRoads in encouraging riders to choose ABS-equipped bikes (because, yes, they will prevent unwanted lock-ups), ABS should never be seen as a substitute for good braking skills and a clear understanding of how your bike performs under brakes.

“If you can use your brakes effectively and to anywhere near their potential, your ABS will rarely if ever have to do any work. That should be the aim.”

Source: Irresponsible advice on motorcycle ABS

You guys could share your assumptions and inferences but making definite claims about ABS based on said assumptions is purely misguiding especially since there is enough data out there explaining how the system works, there are more advanced units that take several parameters into consideration i,e lean and even work alongside TCS to improve overall safety, some that even operate at mind blowing speeds, BUT again there is no AI at play here and hence making claims that even their manufacturers wouldn't dare to is just beyond reason.

There is a similar misconception with Fuel Injection where people presume that Artificial Intelligence is at play when in fact fueling is controlled by multi-dimensional data received from various sensors as is the case with ABS due to a lack of understanding of how the technology works.

The ill effect of putting too much faith in the ABS system over honing ones own braking skill by practicing universal techniques like 'Threshold Braking' is that one unassumingly takes part in what is known as 'Risk Compensation'.

All said and done, I am reiterating once again that I am not trying to tell anyone to ride without ABS, but rather I'm telling everyone to not see it as the ultimate answer to all your braking requirements, cause there is simply no excuse for failing to be prepared.

Some of you might feel that I'm avoiding situation specific questions that you seek a binary answer to, the reason for that is simple, how a motorcycle handles under various conditions is not a binary topic because if it were so then people would not have written books about it.

Believe it or not I have had this same query raised by a fellow enthusiast a week or two ago, it took me quite a bit of time to convince him that you simply cannot fix limited parameters and expect a universally valid answer cause there are parameters such as speed, weight distribution, weight transfer, center of gravity, state of suspension compression/rebound, tyre design, tyre compound, tyre pressure, tyre temperature and many more variables that directly impact traction that he wouldn't even have known existed to begin with. And these are just a few factors pertaining to the motorcycle alone, we have not even considered the environment which has its own variables.

That's all from me guys, my only request is people not overestimate technology at least when personal safety is at stake, whatever be the reason for or against said technology.

Ride Safe!
A.P.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

The ill effect of putting too much faith in the ABS system over honing ones own braking skill by practicing universal techniques like 'Threshold Braking' is that one unassumingly takes part in what is known as 'Risk Compensation'.

Unfortunately, the problem is that in our country there is no formal concept of honing skills on a bike or a car, except for a very few lucky ones who go onto the track and get professional training. I read through the posts in this thread and do not want to take sides. The moment you take out the bike from the showroom, our traffic conditions are so unorganized, by the time we could understand how well the brake bites, there would have already been a situation where we would have had to slam the brakes to avoid crashing into someone. I know that there are veterans who have toured the corners of the country with their commuter class bikes many years back, and their experience and skills would probably not need high tech equipment on a regular day. But not every day is the same, and there would be some situation in which we could not react in ideal ways using long gained skills. Here is where electronics do play their role.

Combining these, its wise to recommend safety tech not because they can save you from everything, but they would definitely save you from something. That something depends upon luck IMO. But its better to have them rather than say later, maybe it would have been better if it was there. I personally would never want to put my bike to the extremes of understanding threshold braking, risking a fall and putting itself and me to harm. If I really wanted to do this, then I would have invested in a commuter bike and spent the rest of money in a private place, good safety gear and push the bike to its capabilities. The biggest miss in my Ninja 300 is ABS, which was unfortunately not available when I brought it and is one major reason which might push me for an upgrade since everytime I brake, I dont do it with confidence. Hence, giving my perspective about this.

[moralfibre]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

The manual I shared the info is from an Indian automobile i.e the Maruti Suzuki Swift, but that is irrelevant as it represents facts.

There have been law suits raised against companies that merely hinted that their ABS units were a replacement for proper braking technique;

There is a similar misconception with Fuel Injection where people presume that Artificial Intelligence is at play when in fact fueling is controlled by multi-dimensional data received from various sensors as is the case with ABS due to a lack of understanding of how the technology works.

In summary you appear to be completely against the use of modern tech that has evolved over older ones to improve safety, reliability and reduce maintenance of vehicles.

The ill effect of putting too much faith in the ABS system over honing ones own braking skill by practicing universal techniques like 'Threshold Braking' is that one unassumingly takes part in what is known as 'Risk Compensation'.

There are very few out there who actually would care for knowing risk compensation. I've ridden bikes without ABS and with ABS and the difference can clearly be felt in usage. I've panic braked on both kinds and the ones with ABS definitely stopped in time without much drama whereas the ones without have gone sideways too often.

[Red Liner]

Why modern traction control systems are good and effective as your bikes become more powerful.

https://youtu.be/ySPh3vDHe70

[Govardhansupra]

Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS) is a feature offered in bikes, normally above 150cc. It comes with extra charges, and most people avoid it to save money, thinking that it is just an electronic goody, and has no use in practical real life. There are many instances where ABS has saved lives.

PROS:
It is our saviour in wet road conditions.
It has saved lives by not locking up the tire.
It prevents skidding of the tire.
It helps us take turns without much difficulty.
It gives us more confidence while braking and nothing happens if we slam the brakes or panic-brake.
This is a stupid statement, but ABS equipped bikes have more resale value. (So Obvious)

CONS:
ABS variants can be very costly with respect to non-ABS variants. (Obviously)
The distance taken to completely come to a halt increases.
Chances are more to hit a vehicle or a person in front, when braked suddenly.
Off-Roaders won't enjoy it.
The so called drifting or skidding can't be done off-road or in wet conditions.
ABS sensors are prone to failure and costs a lot to replace the unit.

The Pros clearly outweigh the Cons with regard to safety.

The new BS6 Himalayan has a switchable ABS system. ABS ON for roads and ABS OFF for OFFROAD.

Please shed some light into this matter, and justify the statement "ABS versions are relatively safer and Value For Money, when safety is concerned"
If I buy a bike, I would choose a bike with dual ABS system, but quite a few buy the NON ABS versions to save money. It is to convince them. Real life experiences are also requested to be shared here.

Thank you!

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

The ill effect of putting too much faith in the ABS system over honing ones own braking skill by practicing universal techniques like 'Threshold Braking' is that one unassumingly takes part in what is known as 'Risk Compensation'.

Just one of those times when I'd have to quote an old post of mine to add supporting information cause when I'd made the OP it was simply too ahead of its time for common comprehension.

https://youtu.be/JFucZaiUoZg

Again a gentle reminder that riding experience is gained from the figures on your motorcycles odometer not the ones on its invoice.

Ride Safe,
A.P.